Asha, 18
Lowell, Massachusetts| November 28th, 2023
Date of Interview: August 16th, 2020
Have you always been in Lowell?
Yeah, never moved, always been in Lowell. Pretty much all I know. I kind of feel like–not like I'm stuck here like it's a bad thing, but it's like I feel like I never got to necessarily experience living elsewhere, so if I were to move, I probably would have a lot of anxiety and a lot of animosity surrounding it. I like Lowell because it’s like my home.
What is your ethnicity?
So my mom, she's full Khmer to my knowledge. I know she brought up before, she's like “oh, do we have Chinese in our blood?” Yeay/យាយ (grandma) said no, ta/តា (grandpa) said no, but it's like our last name so that's why sometimes it's easy to think maybe we might be some Chinese. So I'm not really sure if there's any Chinese in our blood, but I would consider myself like my first half, full Khmer, and my second half is Jamaican. So I'm half Asian, half Black.
How connected do you feel to Khmer culture?
You know I feel pretty connected to Khmer culture because I feel lucky enough to have grown up in Lowell like there’s Khmer people everywhere you look. I mean we're at a Khmer restaurant, so obviously. I feel connected to Khmer culture. I feel like for a while, I was connected but I also felt faraway for it at the same time because I didn't really grow up speaking Khmer that well. Like my Khmer is like Khmer and English mixed together, so it's really broken and my pronunciation isn't that great. But I feel like when I started dancing around like four or five years ago, I started feeling more connected because it helps me to understand more terms in the language, and then the stories that came with Khmer culture, and then being able to dance and then emulate the gods and goddesses that you're playing, the characters, the roles. It was able to like connect me to Khmer culture more because at first it was just growing up with the language, the food, my family, and then now it's like, “oh, I'm actually learning about their stories and I'm being taught by master teachers that came from Cambodia that want to preserve the culture” because it was like so abruptly taken away. We're lucky to have dance at the least so I feel connected in that way that I'm able to carry on the tradition of Khmer dance and it's kind of passed down, so that's how I feel connected.
It's never too late to start because I know people say that it's common with like ballet. I feel like European ballet, that's one thing because you start young ‘cause it molds your body, but I feel like Khmer dance, if you were to start now and you really dedicate yourself, you can after a few years get to the level of experience that you would want. It would take some adjusting but I started only four or five years ago when I was like in my early teens, and I was able to do it. I don't think it's like a restriction to age because you learn it, they help make sure that you know the motions, so it becomes muscle memory. If you want to start now, it wouldn't be a big deal.
How do you feel about your hair?
My hair, that was the thing that for the longest time I did not like. Which is like so weird to say out loud but it was weird growing up because, yeah my mom, she had curly hair, which was like one thing but it's like being half Black like, you know, the status quo. It's like yeah, curly hair, and then status quo but you know what I mean. But it's like you kind of grew up in a city where it's like all Khmer people. And you know how you mentioned a lot of them are mixed Chinese or something, but it's like the long straight black hair and then it's just like my hair is kinky, it’s curly. I always wanted to straighten my hair and sometimes I still fall into that, where it's like you want to be like your classmates, your peers where it’s like loose waves or straight hair. I feel like I'm embracing my hair a lot more now which is good.
It was like a rocky relationship with my hair because you never knew how to take care of it when you're younger. So it was like put it, tie it, wear it in a bun or something, kind of get it out of the way. I feel like I know more hairstyles, I know what products to put in my hair which is really good because actually my hair looks moisturized for once now. And now that I'm straightening it less, I actually have curls ‘cause before, when I didn't cut my hair, it was just like, “God,” like stringy strands.
You totally have a curl pattern, it’s just hiding.
It's just hiding because I damaged it so much and I'm just like, “why did I damage my hair so much with heat?” and I know sometimes I still go back to that but I'm just like, “Dude, really? If you just grew up loving your hair, you wouldn't have to deal with the problems when you're older” but when you're a kid, you just want to fit in ‘cause like in Lowell, the city's majority–I think it's majority Khmer people, like the second biggest population of Khmer people in America. And it's just like all your classmates, it's like, “oh they have wavy straight hair, it's so cute” well that's the beauty standards of Khmer, so it's just like, I just want to be in that. No hate like straight hair’s pretty but I like my curls too. I grew to love them and that wasn't as of until very recently.
Definitely don't feel mad at yourself because it wasn't like you chose to hate your hair or dislike. Other people do that too.
Yeah, it's kind of like the Eurocentric beauty standards that are implemented. Yeah, definitely. I feel like everything goes back to that.
Can you describe your skin color?
My foundation shade says Syracuse in Nars. I'm Syracuse in the wintertime, but I’m Syracuse now because it's like covid, I've been inside all the time. But, I'm Tahoe. I'm Tahoe like normally.
What about the color, not the undertone?
Brown. I'm brown like 100%. I'm just like, “how would I describe it, like caramel?” I'm brown. Like I'm just straight up brown. I never thought about how to describe it.
I think I'm like…maybe I'm just brown. Yeah, I don't know. I never thought about how I would describe my brown ‘cause I always am just like “yeah, I’m brown.”
How do other people describe your skin color?
I don't know, it's not like people outrightly come up to me like, “oh you're brown,” but–actually do they? I don't know because it's like growing up with Khmer people surrounding you, it's like, “oh me khmao/មីខ្មៅ (black, derogatory word for femme)”, or like, just they call me khmao/ខ្មៅ (black) or anything along those lines but I can understand some of what they say, but then also if they go more in depth with what kind of brown they perceive me as, it's just kind of like I don't really hear it because I don't understand it necessarily, but sometimes you just get the vibe like it's not really a good thing. But besides that, like peers, it's all how other people would describe my skin color.
They wouldn't outrightly say things about it, they were just–like in middle school, I would just be sitting there and they would put their hand next to me, “oh, I'm lighter than you.” And then it's just like, “okay?” What does that even mean like what are you saying, like what's the matter?” But yeah, they just put their hand next to me like, “oh, who's darker?” Say like–‘cause people know like because they're around me, like “oh she's mixed Black.” But, if in the case I am lighter than them, they'll put the hand next to me like, “oh, I'm actually darker than you” but say it as a bad thing, or if it's evidently enough that they're darker, they'll deny it like it's a bad thing. You know what I'm saying? So it's just kind of like…I kind of felt like I was, I guess, undesired I guess you could say. But I never took it–I wouldn't say I didn't take it personally but I never held it against them. But no one really outrightly was like describing me and my skin color in my community growing up, like referring to my peers, like older Khmer people are a different story. But referring to my peers, they never said anything outright. They would just do kind of like microaggressions where they’re just like, “oh, I'm lighter than you!”
It’s a microaggression ‘cause people do that to us too.
Yeah, it's like “oh, you're so dark.”
They come up to us and put their arms next to us and make a statement and it's like “am I like the standard of comparison?”
Right! It's just like, what are you to gain from this? And then it's just kind of like, I guess that may have subconsciously put me down in some sense ‘cause that was just a recurring thing, it's not like it happened once or twice. A lot of my peers will come up to me and be like, “oh, I'm lighter than you” or “I'm darker than you,” like the darker part being a bad thing. But besides that, it's never directly describing me but I think I mentioned this [before], it was people saying like not to me specifically but it was a term used in our school like “oh hey blackie!” but they didn't say it to me. They never said that to me because they knew I was Black and I'm pretty sure they knew it was weird and offensive if they were to use it on me. But it's like they would say it to like the dark skinned Khmer person in our class, it's like “oh hey blackie!” But it wasn't like–like it was used as a friendly term like it wasn't meant to bully. It was like “oh hey blackie” like my friend, they would say that. And then it was just kind of like, “okay, so we're really judging each other off of skin color and skin tone, who's darker, who's lighter, you're referring to people as blackie. It may not be me but still, what are you saying?” It's like the notion that you're implying. And it's like, you think it doesn't stick with you but I'm like four years removed from middle school and I still think about it and it still stands out to me so it did matter. That's all I can really think about for how people would describe me.
Where would you say your skin color, your facial features and your hair come from?
I feel like it's hard for me to decipher because I'm mixed, and I know Khmer people generally have the wider, broader nose, they have the curly hair and they’re darker tone. And then also for like Black people on the other end, it's dark skin, broader nose, it's like very–not similar, well, not the same but similar. So it's like, I wouldn't be able to tell you where each of my features came from but I would probably owe most of my features to my dad's side like my Black side because I look like my dad, a lot of people would say, So obviously curly hair, that's like my dad side ‘cause Black, so I have like Black curly hair. And then I think the thing that I would owe to my Khmer side is like my eyes because they're small. I don't think that my eyes are small but I don’t know, when I smile. Yeah, maybe the shape like generally. Growing up, I never knew where my features came from because it was so blurred together. And so, I even have trouble answering this question on my own time like I don't know who I look more like, I don't even know what looks Khmer to me because some people, they’ll come up to me like “oh, you Khmer?” and then I'm like, “oh yeah, how’d you know?” because I want to know what looks Khmer about me? Like is it because I hang out with Khmer peers, what’s Khmer about me like how did you know? Or it's like they come up to me, they think I'm only Black and then like, “oh.” I just want to know what differs me from each of my sides but I really wouldn't be able to tell you ‘cause I don't know.
I never thought I was super Khmer or super Black I guess you could say, or super Jamaican. I always just kind of like was there, I guess. I don't think I looked at it as I was super this or super that, I was like, I'm not enough of–I'm not Black enough or I'm not Khmer enough. That's how I looked at it. Some people think I’m Hispanic or like Filipino. I’ve gotten Vietnamese before. I do not look Vietnamese. That was funny though, that had me laughing though.
How do you feel about your skin color?
I never hated it. I don't think I ever hated it or maybe…‘cause I like myself like I wouldn't want to be anything but the skin color I am. Not that it would pose an issue because it's just like you're born like that. I never felt like I needed to get rid of it or anything like that. I was always aware of my skin color because it's like with media, your peers and growing up in your household, you become hyper aware of your skin color.
I didn’t really necessarily hate it but I was just like, yeah, I guess you could say indifferent, but I did feel kind of like I was in an other category because I feel like–I don't know, looking at it, I know like Khmer people are generally on the darker end for Asians, but it's like growing up, you're too dark for Khmer standards but you're light skin in Black standards. So I never knew where I fell in the spectrum, so I felt like I never had a right to complain because I am privileged in some aspects and then also not in others. It depends on the community you surround yourself in which it differs amongst either or. And I feel like with my Khmer side, it’s like they–I don't know if glorify is the right term but they look to achieve that like Eastern Asian look. So it's a lot of influence from East Asia where it's like light skinned, dark hair, but then East Asia has all of their influence from like–not all, I don't want to say that, but a lot of their influence from Eurocentric beauty standards, and I feel like everything goes back to that because everybody's striving to be like the fair, I guess you could even say like white like the whitest skin. And we have so much skin bleaching in our communities too because Khmer people are on the darker side most times and it's like skin bleaching products are very common. It's undeniable. I used to have them recommended to me actually by–so there was one time, at H Mart.
I went to H Mart and it was the beauty center and I was just buying the little eyebrow shavers because they had it there and they didn't have it at Target at the time. So I was gonna buy it and then I went up to the lady to purchase it and then they give free samples with the purchase, and bro, she had a lot of free samples, I'm gonna just say that right now. She had so many cute lipsticks, so many cute little makeup sample products, but she was kind of digging through them all because she looked at me like, “oh, I have the right thing for you.” And then she went in and, girl, she dug for it. She pulled out this mini kit. It was like a white bottle, white cream, in this little plastic bag and she's like “oh, here's your sample.” And I looked at it, but I was kind of like–I was a little stupid, I didn’t really know what it was, but something subconsciously told me, “don't use it.” I kind of saw it and I was like passing thought because I was into skincare at the time, but for some reason, something in my soul deep down was like do not use it. And I just kept it on my table untouched for years. And I'm telling you, it was like on my table untouched, collecting dust, and then one time when I was cleaning my room, I looked at it years past, older self now, and I was just like, “damn, this lady gave me a skin bleaching product.” I was just like, “what the f.” If you go to Khmer stores and it's like you see lined up behind the register all the skin creams and I remember the pink bottle, the pink one. Yeah, and then the lady, she has the fairest skin on the box. Oh my god, it's triggering. But, well not in that sense but you know what I mean. But I remember, like even though when I was younger, I didn't speak great Khmer, I kind of like just knew that when I went to the store with my grandma, the lady behind the counter was like, “oh, do you want this?” but my grandma never bought it for me. But yeah, it was suggested. I was just like, “okay” like you become aware of it over time but I think I was naive a lot of the time too.
“If you go to Khmer stores and it's like you see lined up behind the register all the skin creams and I remember the pink bottle, the pink one.”
Have you ever done anything to change your skin color?
I've never done anything outright to change my skin color, but I felt in the past happier when I was able to get into a lighter foundation shade than I initially thought I would be ‘cause you kind of look up at the range and you're like “I probably fit here” but then you ask the Sephora clerk and they’re like, “oh, this one matches your skin better with your undertone.” I was just like, “oh, I actually got into the one on the lighter side like much lighter.” You kind of feel like an unnecessary sense of pride in that, but you shouldn't. I shouldn't have but I did ‘cause of like, you know. That's what was presented to me. It was just like internalized, I guess, internalized colorism I had with myself.
When we were growing up too, we didn’t have that many shade ranges. It was all kind of like, probably the darkest you can get–like I used to be the darker shade, and it's like, I'm light skinned but I was considered the darkest shade. And even the darkest shade wouldn’t fit me, but it's like you kind of buy it. And then I remember I had the same experience. I went to Mac and I was getting my first foundation. It was a skin tint actually but the white cast was crazy, and it’s just like “dude…girl, that was not your shade! Don't front like you was hiding something.” But, it’s just trying to reach for the lighter shade. It's like denying yourself, it feels.
Yeah, like trying to make it work.
Yeah, you try to make it work like maybe if I blended out enough, I'll pass. But then you take a picture, and the flashback is scary.
I didn’t get rid of my flashback problems until I was a freshman in college ‘cause I realized I was wearing foundation that was way too light for me. I was like putting the setting powder all correctly like everything is rightly placed, but no, it was the shade. I was in denial.
Yeah, it's denial because I feel like in your core, you know damn well this ain't your shade. But it's like I can pass for it, I can pass for it! I feel like at that point it's just anything to pass to feel a little bit better about yourself. Yeah, it sucks but I feel like we were able to grow from it because now we actually have the right foundation shade, which is always nice. But, I never really thought about it like that.
So in your family, so your immediate family, your extended family, where are you on the skin color scale? Who’s the darkest, who’s the lightest, where are you in comparison to them?
I think I would be in the middle. Actually, my dad is a dark skin Black person. He's Jamaican, full Jamaican so he's on the darker end because he's full, I'm mixed. So there's that difference between us, but also I have cousins that are darker than me but they're full Khmer. So, even at that point, I was still in the middle and lighter than my cousins, well some of my cousins because they would be full Khmer, like full Asian, but they were still darker than me. And I don't know, I would consider myself in the middle, definitely. I don't know when I was growing up, if I ever felt pride in that, like “oh, my cousins are full Khmer but they're darker than me” and I'm not that dark and I'm half Black. Like I guess I internalized that at some point but I never looked at it as like–I couldn't say I never looked at it as a bad thing because clearly I had internalized feelings about it, but it was just kind of like pass–not passing thoughts, it's like, do you know what I mean when I say like you think about things but you don't, like your subconscious recognizes it but you don't realize that you're having these thoughts in the moment, moments like these where you’re forced to confront them. I think I would fall in the middle, middle end maybe because I'm still kind of on the darker side at the same time, even though in like Black standards, I'm light skin. But yeah, that's always been like the weird spectrum that I’ve been on, I guess.
Thinking about the entire Cambodian population in your head, the darkest Cambodians, the lightest Cambodians, where do you think you fit in on that spectrum?
I think even at that point, I'd be in the middle because even like middle end at the same time because the lightest of Cambodians are like, I think we discussed this before, the superstars, the popstars, like they use filters to lighten your skin, they use, I don't know if they use skin bleaching products but it seems like it maybe. Very, very light. There's like this one dude, I can't remember him but I remember liking him a lot but he's super light, super light, and a lot of the stars in Cambodia are super light like East Asian light, would say. But then there's like, you know, it gets a little darker, darker, darker, besides just brown. I feel like I'm around here towards the the end. But then there's definitely like people that are darker than me that are full Khmer. And yeah, they're honestly–I know it's gonna be brought up in the next few questions but they're like on the lower income scale like farm workers is like a lot of what people say.
Thinking about Cambodian media, TV shows, movies, kampleng/កំប្លែង (comedies), lakorn, people talk about comedy a lot. Do you feel represented, do you see people who look like you?
No, I don't because they're all extremely–I don't know if extremely’s the word, but they’re on the lighter side and a lot of the time, if you are on the darker side like me, they would try to lighten you up like we talked about the photos that you would take and like if you're posing as in an Apsara garment or if you're just doing a Cambodian photo shoot, they'll put the light foundation, they'll put the filters, they'll photoshop you to be light. I just don't think I feel represented because the beauty standard is what's represented and that's being light, being fair to be specific. I feel like as of recently, Korean pop music has been a big influence on Khmer society, especially, and it's like you see in like–because I used to be really into Kpop and stuff like that, and it's just like growing up, you see they're all skinny and very, very, very fair and that's a very valued beauty trait in Korea. And a lot of Khmer people are very inspired by Korean beauty standards, whether that be their fashion, their makeup, skincare, whatever. But it's just kind of like that “oh, I don't want to go out in the sun too long, don't get dark.”
And this is kind of like pulling away from the question, but I don't feel very represented in media because it's like they mostly–even though I feel like most people, most Khmer people, are on the darker side or just brown in general, they're not necessarily represented because it's the Eurocentric beauty standards that everybody kind of goes to whether they plan to or not, whether it's intentional or not. I feel like it's just so ingrained in our society where it's just like the lighter you are, the more privilege you have, the lighter you are, the more love you'll get. I feel like a lot of the time growing up, it's like maybe being lighter, I would get more love or maybe I'll get more attention.
Let’s say one day, you were to be casted in any form of Cambodian media like Cambodian producers push you in something. What kind of role would you be casted as? What would your lines be like? What kind of occupation would you have? What would you be wearing? What would they cast you as?
Definitely not up there but just like lower class citizen, if anything. Maybe farmer, lower class definitely, just kind of lower and down is what I’m thinking is that I’d be casted as. Maybe I’d be that foreigner person maybe, but not the good type of foreigner that's like “oh, you're from America, you're highly educated” because that's usually like the White dude that's featured in the movies. That's the White cis male that's featured in the Khmer movies where they’re like “oh my gosh, it's the foreigner!” Nah, I'm like the foreigner where it’s just like that gets clowned on. I don't know if that made sense, I don't really watch that many Khmer movies but from what I've seen growing up. I know damn well I'm not gonna be like the main character or the love interest. Maybe I'd be the bad guy or, you know, something like that. But yeah, negative traits kind of come with a darker skin, I guess, whether we like it or not.
Describe how colorism affects you.
I feel like the older I got, the more I realized colorism affects me because I feel like I faced it in two different instances because like I previously said, I'm dark in Khmer standards or I'm dark in Asian standards in general, and I face microaggressions I guess you could say in that instance but it's like I'm privileged because I have my own set of privileges because I'm light skinned in regards to my Jamaican side like my Black side, I am considerably light skin. So it's like I always struggled because I was always an in-between. You just never know where you fall in with the categories. It's just like never feeling like I'm Khmer enough or never feeling like I'm Black enough. It's always feeling othered like when you check off the boxes at school for what race you are. For the longest time, they did not have the option to check off multiple. Now they have a two or more races box, but I didn't have that before so it was like, “mom, what do I check off?” She's like, “oh, just check off Asian.” So I was checking off Asian and all through my school years, I look on my student profile or my student portal online, it says Asian. It says nothing else, it just says Asian because that's what I checked off when I was so young and then it just kind of followed.
In high school, I just graduated, so throughout my high school experience I was Asian. There's no mention of Black on my records, I was just Asian because I only had that option going up to check off. And then two or more races came and I guess that's better. Now they have the square where I can check off multiple, which is nice. Because I had my Khmer side of my family, and that's all I grew up with. On my dad's side, I only have my dad, and at seven years old I met my grandma on my dad's side, so they're all I had and all I ever knew on my Black side. So I never really grew up with anybody that looked like me in that regard, like I only had my dad and I only had my grandma, but I never grew up knowing my culture or anything like that regarding being Jamaican, so just kind of like a lot of animosity there. I never felt Black enough. Even now, I don’t feel like enough ‘cause I never grew up with them, and there's not a lot of Black people in this community as well. Lowell doesn't have that many Black people so you don't really see people that understand that same struggle as you. There's still Black people obviously, but it's not to the extent that we have our Asian or Hispanic population.
But yeah, on my Asian side, I felt like I was always like trying to fit in because I grew up with like all Asian friends, all my Asian family. Like you know how all the time, kids fall into that instance where it's you surround yourself with the people that you grew up with and it's like, “oh if you're born Hispanic, all of your friends tend to be Hispanic” or “if you're born Black, all of your friends tend to be Black.” And I kind of fell into that instance, even though I was mixed race, however, all my friends are Asian. Not all of them but a good majority of them are Asian. So, in those friend groups, I was just like, “am I even Asian enough?” but at the same time, I felt like I was Asian enough because I grew up with the Khmer culture and the food, I dance, I felt like I was doing everything that was Asian enough. But we look in the mirror and it’s just like, “I don't know.” I feel like colorism has affected me ‘cause just a lot of like not knowing where you fall in, where you fit in.
We’re all so different! So many countries within that one big continent! And I feel like now that you mentioned that, the only–not only but the only representation in media that we get in America of Asian people is East Asian, whether that be Korean, Japanese, Chinese, that’s the representation we get. Like the Japanese, they have their Devon Aoki, I think that's how you say her name. Chinese they have Constance Wu, they have Lucy Liu, and then you know like Korean, they have Jay Park, I don't know, he’s American. But, it's not really like Southeast representation, which is so different from East.
And dude, watching Crazy Rich Asians, I tried so hard to assimilate and be like, “oh my gosh, this is representation, this is what I want” or watching Hustlers, the main character was supposed to be Khmer and they cast Constance Wu. Yeah, she gets every Asian role, which isn't a terrible thing but it's just that there’s so many people that need to be represented. Like at least Southeast Asian, give us that but I'm sure there's a lot of talented Khmer actors, actresses, trying to make it. I'm sure if they tried and didn't type cast Constance Wu all the time, like bro.
But it's like, dude, we don't even get representation in America, and the representation we get is East Asian. And it's just like I don't look like them. I don't look like them, my mom don't look like them, we don’t do the same cultural practices necessarily, like a lot of it is the same values but it's very different if you were to compare Chinese culture to Khmer culture, it’s very different. And it's just like, that's all that White Hollywood sees us as. Chinese, like you know that stereotype where they go up to you and they're like, “are you Chinese?” You know what I mean. We don't get any representation in America like let's just say [it] plain out loud. I don't know, I feel like the only time I've heard Cambodia mentioned, Cambodia or any Southeast Asian country mentioned in film is probably like Freedom Riders. Have you watched that? Where they're like, “oh, it's a little Cambodia!” ‘cause it's Long Beach, California, number one population for Khmer people. And granted, I might be missing some but it's the fact that I even have to look for Southeast Asian representation. And have you heard of that new film, that Disney film, Raya? That’s some Southeast Asian representation, but I feel like it's so overdue that they're finally recognizing “oh my god, Asian people aren't just Chinese! They aren't just Japanese or East in general. They’re Southeast.” Like, there's so many Indigenous groups like you previously mentioned, but I feel like colorism has affected me in that instance where it's like, “oh crap, all the people in Asian media I don't look like. Maybe I'm not Asian enough.”
I know this is stepping into my Jamaican side, but it's also at that point, you grew up with dolls that don't look like you. Growing up, they didn't have Black dolls like that, it was like all White. They didn't start having that until as of recent, which is like now you see more diversity in kids’ toys which is amazing, and you see in the books where it's like “oh, it's little girls with kinky curly hair.” Like I never had that. I always had like my White doll, and stuff like that. And I remember this one time–I know I'm bringing up a bunch of different things and I hope it's relating to a question–but I remember when I was younger, I told my dad, I was like, “my favorite Disney Princess is Jasmine.” And he was like, “oh, that's good,” that's a good thing because Jasmine is a woman of color like she's somebody that I would be comparable to. But, I never realized why he was like, “oh, that's good like Jasmine should be your favorite” ‘cause Jasmine at the time was like [the] only woman of color person, Disney Princess. There's Pocahontas but you know the whole story with Pocahontas isn't that accurate to the history.
And then I remember at one point, I think my classmate was like “oh, I love Ariel” and I was like–I don't know if that was me trying to fit in or starting to think that Ariel was more beautiful because all my friends like Ariel more than they did like Jasmine. I told my dad I was like, “oh, I don't like Jasmine anymore, I like Ariel,” and he's like “no you don’t.” He was like, “say sike right now” <laughs>. And then I was like, “yeah, I like Jasmine.” This one sounds stupid but I recently realized more colorism in my life that's affected me.
But yeah, another instance of how colorism has affected me and I guess going more into love life, I[‘d] never seen myself being attractive to somebody that was lighter than me or somebody that was like light. I would never see myself as attractive enough for them to even consider. It was always weird to me if somebody lighter than me or White showed interest in me. It was weird like I was like “me?” Like I never felt good enough. And I guess that's how colorism has impacted me or it’s like you look at yourself, you don't mean to but you start viewing yourself in not in the highest light. You make excuses for the beauty standards that were put upon you, the colorism that you had to face. You make excuses for it ‘cause that's all you know. So, I made excuses for the fanfiction, “oh, it's not me, it's fun to read it but I just won't put my name.” It's like, “oh they wouldn't like me because I'm too dark or my hair is too curly, but that's fine.” Like, it was always just kind of accepting like the cards that I've been dealt whether I liked it or not, just accepting what it was.
What are stereotypes that you’ve received or people have told you about your ethnicity? So what are some stereotypes you hear about Khmer people like Indigenous Khmer people?
I feel like the stereotypes I face like Indigenous Khmer, I don't really know because I feel like I've recognized more stereotypes where it's like, “oh what part of Cambodia is your family from?” And then you say, “Oh–” I don't know how to say it, “Battambang,” and they kind of look at it like lower, like “oh, that's the countryside” like, “oh, that's where the darker people reside,” it's the countryside, it’s farmland. But then if you say like, “oh, I'm from Siem Reap” or “I'm from Phnom Penh,” they're like, “oh, so you're from the city? What does your family do there?” It's looked at with more privilege, more class, I guess. So I feel like that's a stereotype that comes with being Khmer, like where's your family from and then they judge you based on the country that your family comes from. If it's countryside, you're kind of looked at as lower class and then if you're from the city, they're like “oh wow, good for you.”
I never realized that there's Indigenous Khmer people, Khmer Angkor. There's just so many differences within our one ethnic group, and I feel like pointing that out is really important because it's true, they’ll look at the darker skinned citizens, especially the Indigenous women and think, “oh, you're lazy, oh, you're not gonna work as hard for the job that you receive if you were put in the city” but it's like Indigenous people were never given that chance, were never given that privilege to be able to try.
And then you wonder what happens to them because they're getting the short end of the stick like 100% of the time, dude.
Based on your perception of Cambodia, what kind of jobs do you imagine or do see people who look like you are working in Cambodia, like largely?
I probably would be a cook, I'm not a good cook but if I was–I'm not a good cook at all but if I was raised in Cambodia brought up, I would probably be cooking it up. But yeah, I think I would be like a merchant, marketplace, farm, just along those lines but it's like I don't see myself as the next Cambodian popstar. That's not what I see. I don't see myself as like the political, well-respected government official, I don't see myself up there in class. But yeah, I don't see myself in that light. I’m working the lower class jobs.
What about Cambodians who are darker than you?
I hate to say it but in the class system, 100% likely a farmworker or anything along those lines, or labor, hard labor. It's hard to say it out loud and obviously I know it doesn't reflect my thoughts of how they should be treated, but it's how they are treated. It's just what we're facing now and that's fact. A lot of them are seen as farmworkers and laborers, lower education. It's not fair at all, it’s sad.
What about Cambodians that are much lighter than you?
Popstar, a judge on The Voice, Voice Cambodia, government official, they're not doing too bad is what I'm saying.I'm not saying all the light skin people on the lighter side are necessarily automatically gonna be a popstar or anything, but it's just kind of like the instance of like they would be more likely candidate than somebody labored.
Why is that lighter spaces, these elite spaces, these spaces are whiter, could be media, why do you think that these spaces are always significantly lighter in Cambodia specifically?
I believe that they're significantly lighter because I feel like in America alone, racism is laid on like you can't escape it. It's a part of our society. And it's so prevalent in our world in its entirety that you can't escape it. It all goes back to the Eurocentric beauty standards of like who's on top, the White dude, the White woman, the blonde hair, the blue eyes, they're the ones on top. They're the standard. It's so deeply ingrained in our minds. It's hard to recognize your own prejudices within yourself. I don't know, I feel like it's a lot of trying to fit into that beauty standard and that's why so many people in the higher positions are like that because they want to emulate what the Eurocentric beauty standard asks of them, and they don't even realize that they're doing it. They don't even realize they're doing it to an extent and then it just creates so much self hatred I feel, and so much hatred towards people that are any darker. There's a lot to be said but also not a lot because it's just these beauty standards, and these ideas that people attach to those beauty standards is so prevalent in our Cambodian community and in Cambodia in itself that it’s like you can't escape it. That's why so many people, so many of the higher up, the upper class, that's why so many of them if they're not light, they look to be whiter using skin creams, say put the darker citizens into lower class to bring themselves up because they're like, “oh, I'm achieving this higher standard of living, I'm fair, I'm comparable, I'm trying to reach this level of whiteness,” and it's like “I'm better.”
Let’s say you were born super light, like the Cambodian ideal that you see on the magazines, that's you. How do you think your life would be different, how do you think your relationship with your family would be?
Dude, my family would love me. They love me now like I am the baby, but I feel like they’d be like more “oh, look at my granddaughter. My granddaughter.” I probably would get hooked up more with people, I don’t know. But it’s kind of like the trophy child, I would be the trophy child like I’m light, I would be pretty. It’s like being the equivalent of the upper class and the people in the magazines. I feel like I would be treated way better like my life would probably be very much easier. It's like that privilege of not having to think about what people go through, like the prejudice and racism that they face just because of their skin color. I wouldn't have to face any of that if I was lighter, if I was–because I would be looked at in a higher light. I wouldn't have to question if I'm enough, I wouldn't have to question if I was Khmer enough. I wouldn't have to deal with a lot of the psychological trauma that I experienced growing up. No one would be offering me skin whitening creams ‘cause I'd already be that standard. People wouldn't be making snide comments on me. All those snide comments would probably turn into compliments, praise. You get praise when you're lighter. My life would definitely be easier because you don't have to face that type of discrimination and nobody wants to face discrimination. But it's like when you have the privilege to not have to deal with that, your life does become easier, especially since so many people are able to just tune it out, act like it's not happening to somebody else.
How do you think your relationship with Cambodians would be in general? Cambodians in Lowell, for example, how do you think relationship with them change or be different if you looked like that?
I feel like I wouldn't understand as much. I feel like you can never understand the struggle that they go through if you're not in it. You could try, you can try to be an ally, I guess you could say, but you'll never get what they go through. I feel like it's so deeply ingrained in our society that there's always that space for just acknowledging, like just sitting in a room, nobody says anything like you just know that there's that difference, like that kind of tension of like you're darker than me. You're lighter, you're gonna be treated with respect with more poise, more praise. I don't know, but yeah, I feel like in a room like if I were say, the beauty standard of Khmer women, I would probably not recognize the privilege that I have, or if I did recognize it, I wouldn't be able to fully understand the extent of what Khmer Angkor go through. I wouldn't be able to fully understand what it meant to have colorism in our Cambodian communities. I wouldn't be able to understand. I could try but it's so much deeper than people give it credit for being so deeply ingrained into society. It would come as a shock, I guess, for somebody because they never had to go through that.
How do you think your relationship with the opposite gender would be different?
Suitors left and right. Dude, I've always felt like growing up, that I was like not pretty enough for my classmates. Even if they're like Khmer, just straight up Khmer, I just felt like I wasn't pretty enough for them like why would they want me? I'm dark, I have curly hair, I'm mixed Black. I always kind of felt not good enough. I didn't hate my Black side but there was that kind of colorism. It's just colorism. It's just you've never really realized that as a kid. But, I just feel like I would have more people coming for me like, “oh, you're so pretty.” I would have more people sliding up in my DMs, but I don’t. For a lot of my life, I just never felt pretty enough. I used to have the worst issue of comparing myself to my peers, my friends. And I know it's so toxic but it’s like, “oh, they’re prettier than me.” I kind of recognize deep down, I'm like, “I know why they're prettier than me” because like I don't want to recognize that within myself, and I know it's not a valid reason.
Have you ever thought about if you wanted your spouse to be lighter or darker than you?
I don’t want to get married, I have my own issues with relationships, I'm just not one for them. It's just personal things but in the instance if I were to simulate me getting married, I would probably get married to somebody that's either as equal to my skin tone or probably darker. I don't think I could ever like date a White dude for my own personal reasons because of the depths of racism and it goes that deep, especially with me being Black, I just can't bring myself to. I don't know, I couldn't bring myself to date a White person. I don't think they'd be able to understand the depths of what I've gone through and it's nothing towards their personality or anything, it's just kind of like, you have to recognize the struggle that's more than a struggle that has been gone through. I don't think I'd be able to do that. I love Harry Styles, but I'm just kidding.
Would you want your child lighter or darker than you?
I never really thought about that because I never wanted kids, but in the case that they were going to come out, I wouldn't care how they came out because it's unconditional love, but at the same time you can't act like you wouldn't worry for them if they were to come out darker. I feel like there's a sense of relief that comes out when they come out lighter, like you won't have to deal with the struggles that I went through. You won't have to deal with that type of discrimination, necessarily, but if they were to come out darker than me, then I'd be worried. I'd be scared because this world isn't nice, this world freaking sucks. They don't treat people of my skin color or even darker kindly. They don't give them the benefit of the doubt like they do lighter. You get a lot of privilege when it comes to being lighter and I want like my kid if I ever had one to grow up with character, to grow up actively anti-racist, I don't want them to just sit and grow up seeing it all happen and just accepting it. Yeah, I would just want them to grow up to be actively anti-racist. fight for what's right, don't let anybody make them feel as less than what they are, especially since now, it's more important than ever.
This time, we’ll ask you if both of your parents were very very light skinned, or just very light in general. How do you think your life would be different?
If we're supposed to put all of the struggles aside and just the privileges that come with being light and fair, I feel like I would be treated with more respect, I feel like my parents would also be treated with more respect and wouldn't have to struggle as much as they have. It's just like you never thought about it, but it's just like, we wouldn't have to struggle as much and I feel like with the war that happened requires you come to America, I feel like it may have been an easier time. I hate to think about it because everybody was going through so much pain, but I feel like if you were lighter, you would probably get more help, you would probably get more assistance and be able to make it more in the world, more privileges at that point. If I was growing up with that privilege, I think my life would definitely be way easier and I don't think if it was generational, my grandma’s light, my grandpa’s light, both my parents are very light, me, I'm light, I don't think I would even think about what other people went through. I don't think it would be a thought that crossed my head because it wouldn't affect me.
It wouldn't affect me because I would be living the life that I was living. And I feel like it would be so easy to get defensive as many people do that are lighter skinned. They're like “oh yeah, we go through struggles too” but you'll never understand. I feel like if I was in that position, I could never understand the extent of the discrimination, the racism, that people have darker skin tones to face. And even though, at the end of the day we all speak Khmer, that doesn't matter because they're not looking at how Khmer you are, they're not looking at you for like Khmer, they're looking at you for how light you are for a Khmer person. I feel like with Cambodians, it's not like…I feel like it's just a lot of division, I guess you could say, amongst us because it's like–I don't know if classist is the right word, but it's just a lot of discrimination based on are you light enough, you're gonna be treated better, are you dark enough and it's just been so deeply ingrained and unaddressed for so long where it’s like at least I have this interview where it's been able to be addressed and you guys are gonna make the website and add dialogue to the country that's never gotten it. My life would definitely be easier, infinitely.
If both of your parents and your family were super light, would you be sitting here? Would you still be here? Would you be dressed the way you’re dressed? What would you be doing?
If I was lighter and I was here, I don't think I'd be here because, first of all, if I'm lighter, I wouldn't have these concerns. But say I did and I actually educated myself and I was lighter because some people just don't, some people just would turn a blind eye to it. Then in that case, maybe I would turn a blind eye if I was lighter. But in the case that I actually educated myself and I would fight for what's right, do my best to shed light on it, I don't think I would be on this interview because I feel like it would be important to give the chance to have the voices of those that are darker, Khmer Angkor, anybody. I think it's important to amplify their voices first before I would say anything as a lighter, fair person. I could still fight for like the equality and the diminishing of colorism in our society, but if you were to approach me like, “oh hey let's do this interview,” and I was here like the fairer, whiter person, I wouldn't be able to accept because I've never gone through that, I would have never gone through that struggle that people have a darker skin tone go through daily in their lives having to face. Not saying that you can’t do things from the side and support and be an ally, but it's always important to give them that voice and that space to express themselves because you've been given that. I've like looking at myself from the whiter Khmer person perspective, you've always been given that privilege of being able to reflect and have that voice given to you. Give it to the people that never got the chance. That's the difference that I would say if I would ever be here if I was white, like lighter. I feel like either you're gonna stand ground for what's right, or you're not and you're just gonna keep turning a blind eye.
If you could change anything in your life, what would you do and why?
I wouldn't necessarily change everything because I feel like the struggle that I've gone through in my own personal life has contributed to the person I am today and I'm very proud of who I am today. I wouldn't change what has already happened because I feel like it's a very necessary uncomfortable learning point. Not that it should have happened, not that racism should have happened but we learn from our history or at least I hope we would learn from our history. And what I would want to change is going forward just how we interact with each other, how we treat each other, destroy the notions in our mind that we've grown so comfortable with. Just do better going forward instead of trying to change what's previously been implemented into our past. I feel like that's the duty of every Khmer person, whether you're affected by colorism or not. You need to do your part in making sure that we don't repeat the past mistakes that we've made. It's people's lives that are on the line at some point like Khmer Angkor, they're just not as present as they used to be due to the treatment that they've received and it's just like they're dying out. That's happened because we were so neglectful as a country–not as a country, as a whole, as a community as a whole.
But yeah, it's just actively being anti-racist, anti-colorism, and not just standing by and hoping that somebody else will do the work because I feel like that's a big problem. We're always looking, “oh, maybe somebody else will do it, maybe somebody else will help change everything” but it's not like that. You’ve got to take it into your own hands because if you're not going to do it and you're a part of the community that you claim, then nobody else is going to do it. You just got to take it for what it is and got to work on it from there on out.
Just knowing that this is going to be on a public website, is there anything you would like to say to the audience reading it, the Cambodian community in general?
I would just say nobody's struggles are invalid. Everybody goes through hardships in their life and it's not to invalidate. It's just that we need to help the communities within our community thrive before we're all able to thrive together because I feel like Cambodia in itself, it's been in the same place for a while since the 70s. And we need to uplift each other and uplift the groups within our general population that are struggling before we are able to move past old notions. It's not something that “oh, it's your problem.” No, it's all of our problems. It's something we have to face together, something that can't be put or dusted under the rug. It's just taking responsibility for the part that you play in the community and if you never played a part, start. Start doing better and if you played a negative role, do better. At this point, it’s just we can only do better.