Chan, 19

Houston, Texas | April 7th, 2021

Date of interview: June 30th, 2020

How would you describe your skin color with respect to the rest of Cambodians?

I would say for rural Cambodians, I'm considered lighter, so a light brown; for Cambodians in the city, I would be considered darker brown.

How do you feel about your facial features, as well as your hair?

I used to be insecure about my nose because I was told that my nose was big for a girl and people used to tell me that I was really dark. The first thing that people would tell me is that my nose is big and that I'm dark. My hair when I was going through puberty‒I didn't like my hair back then. Because for me, [it was] unruly to manage. When I was being raised, there was nobody who taught me how to do my hair or anything; I was 12, but I still didn't know how to braid or I didn't know how to take care of my hair. Growing up, people would say, ‘Oh Chan, you don't have typical Asian people hair,’ and what they meant by that was hair by East Asian standards, so really silky hair. They would always describe my hair as rough and dry. I use conditioner‒I can't help that! It is what it is. My hair feels this way, it looks this way, because it is my hair.

When you say what a lot of people would say to you is that you have a big nose and you're dark, did you mean general American people in your school and stuff, or do you mean Cambodian people or other Asian people who say those things to you?

Cambodian people always comment on how I’m dark. They wanted to see for themselves and the first thing they commented on was that I'm dark, and that I am big for being small, like short.

So, it’s mostly Cambodian people who say you're dark and you have a big nose.

I think Cambodians in America comment on my nose because they're used to Western features having skinny noses. I look like my grandpa, so my grandpa has a nose like mine; his nose is big, flat and has big nostrils. People always comment on how I look like my grandpa because of my nose.

Those Cambodians who say all these things, when you think about their skin color in reference to yours, have you ever noticed anything?

They’re lighter. I never had a person darker than me point out my skin color.

How do you think others would describe your skin color?

I would say that lighter Cambodians, Cambodians who are not of indigenous Khmer descent, would say that I'm dark. Indigenous Khmers would say that I’m light in comparison to them, but still brown. Americans would say that I'm brown, and East Asians would say that I'm brown.

What do you think of your skin color with respect to your family or your parents, more specifically?

[My dad] gets it when I talk about colorism. He understands what it's like to be brown because he is brown, but he's not indigenous Khmer type brown, but he still understands and he understands what they go through, and same with me. 

Growing up, my mom was dark and she got made fun of; people didn't even know she was Khmer. Outside of the people she immigrated with, people would not know what her ethnicity was in the United States when she came. Some people thought my mom was mixed with Black and another type of Asian country, but they couldn't pinpoint what type of ethnicity she was in Asia. I think my mom now has a different perspective on the color of her skin and how she relates that because as she got older‒my mom is like 50 something now‒her skin tone is lighter. But growing up [during] most of her 20s, marrying into my dad's family where everybody presents more Chinese, I feel like she was discriminated against a lot against the color of her skin.

Can you describe how colorism has affected your life?

Middle school is ironically a bad time for everybody, but middle school was particularly bad for me because I went to a magnet school. This magnet school was predominantly White and East Asian, specifically Chinese, so over there you just feel when people don't respect you, and I felt like nobody would want to work with me because they thought I was inherently dumber because of the color of my skin. I stood out and this magnet school is really competitive; everybody just treated it like it was the pipeline to Harvard and MIT which it lowkey is because everybody I know goes to Harvard, MIT, whatever, Stanford. So, they treated it that serious[ly] in the sixth grade and I'd be putting up the grades, I'd be like ‘Yall look at my 105’ and they'll be like, ‘I made a 110,’ and I'm just like, ‘Oh, okay.’ 

They just wouldn't want to work with me, and I always felt like I constantly had to prove how smart I was and so that's why middle school was horrible. I think it was just because I was not Chinese and I was not White, essentially, that they held those prejudices against me as middle schoolers, essentially, kids. I felt like they've always held that prejudice against me because throughout high school I feel like people keep checks on you. People keep checks on you and they were always watching me throughout high school even though we split to different high schools, and so every move that I would make that was significant, they would know about it and I don't talk to them. Particularly, when I got into Stanford, I didn't say anything to anybody, but they knew and that's when they wanted to start talking to me, asking me questions and trying to connect with me on LinkedIn, when they know really well that they discriminated against me based on the color of my skin in middle school. It was middle school, but also at the same time they were taking calculus in middle school, so they were some smart kids. So, I don't think it's just a matter of they were children; the way that they behaved with me and they didn't want to talk to me and didn't want to do work with me was a result of their prejudice against me being Brown.

When you say they just discriminated against you based on the color of your skin, do you think that they perceived you as just the same race as them except darker, or did they “other you” saying like, “Oh, she's different”?

At some point in middle school, I would be like, ‘Oh, I'm Khmer, I'm a little bit Chinese too’ and as soon as I would say that I'm a little bit Chinese too‒because it’s true‒they would be nicer to me and find that as like ‘You're in,’ like your ticket to work with us as soon as I said that I was Chinese and not just Cambodian‒not even Khmer, but just Cambodian. 

Did you think that they perceived you as Cambodian, as in they knew that you were Cambodian, or do you think that you were perceived as just Asian or maybe even Chinese but darker?

As soon as I said I was mixed Chinese, they all looked at me like I was crazy because I don't have any Chinese features. Maybe my hair, but not even because I was going through puberty at the time and my hair was really coarse and curly. When I told them I was mixed with Chinese, they thought I was crazy. They were like, ‘I've seen your mom, I’ve seen your dad’ because all of them had parents who had very East Asian centric features. Our parents did not look the same, and for me to be like, ‘Yeah, my dad's half Chinese,’ blew their mind. Some of them don’t even know what Teochew is; for them it's Mandarin or nothing. 

I'm pretty sure you've seen Cambodian karaoke advertisements, movies even though you're in America. Would you say that you feel represented at all?

Absolutely not. If I feel represented, it's in some type of comedy where it’s a satire of poor rural Cambodians who are darker and they do their makeup that way too. If I went to Phnom Penh, they would think that I’m Khmer for sure, regardless that they think that I'm Khmer-American or not, we don’t look the same‒most the people in the city don't look like me, and they would know that we're different. In the media, they all appear lighter and I feel like they're trying to work with East Asian media, like the clothing that they wear, the way that they style their hair. It's a mix between ABG kind of culture, K-pop culture, and Chinese culture. I swear if I looked at them, I would not know that they're Khmer unless they started speaking to me. I do it all the time when I'm watching music videos with my mom in the living room, like on YouTube. I always ask myself that question: ‘Would I know that they're Khmer?’ and the answer is no because even in their face, they don't present features that are Khmer to me. 

Let's say you were to be casted in any form of Cambodian media. It could be a commercial, could be a movie, could be a comedy, could be music video. What do you think your role would be?

Villager. I think I would be a villager or something. I don't think I would be the star of the show either. I’d be extra number four getting water from the river to wash my clothes.

Why is it that these spaces in Cambodia are as always significantly lighter?

My suspicion is all the Thai dramas that Khmer people like to dub over that we watch and send to America, CDs that Khmer people just watch––a lot of Thai people are Chinese or mixed Chinese, or mixed German or Danish or whatever––and they look like that so that has become where Khmer media started to think that they have to compete with that. They had to bring in people who have those features or similar features. That's just a theory that I have, trying to copy Thai Lakorn but I also think it comes from trying to bleach your skin or make your skin appear lighter by Chinese and East Asian standards. Even in Korea, there's also [my] theory that the whole K-pop thing and all these Korean people who appear lighter in their own media and promote products for lighter skin...that also perpetuates [the whitening of Cambodian media] because popular culture is a big thing. When they see a celebrity promoting these products or promoting these features, they want to do that too and I feel like Cambodia is always trying to follow somebody else. I feel like Cambodian popular culture is the Walmart version of somebody else's media because they're always trying to go after somebody else's standard. That's why the people in our media don't look like my people. That's why they look the way they do because they're not trying to look like them.

What do you think when Cambodian women bleach their skin? What will they gain from that, what kind of things do they end up getting after they become light?

Once they become lighter, people just start to see them a little bit different. People think that they're more wealthy because obviously they're not doing anything that makes them tan. Maybe you'll gain a husband because they're more saat/ស្អាត (pretty) or whatever; people will see them that way‒more desirable. So, people will offer up their hand in marriage. There’s a  preconception that because they're lighter, they have money. Sometimes men want to marry into families on money, so that's what they would get out of that–just more suitors.

What kind of jobs do you think darker Cambodian women would be doing in Cambodia?

You'd be a farmer, or you'll be driving moto or tuk-tuk. You'd be on the road, cooking food in one of the food stalls, not an actual restaurant, or you're a fisherman. To some extent, I think that it doesn't matter what your occupation is; you could be out in the sun all day, but if you don't have the melanin in you, you're not gonna get dark. There's a cap somewhere. It's not to say that all Brown people work these jobs. You can not be Brown and still work these jobs and still appear White.

What kind of jobs do you see people who are lighter than you working in Cambodia?

There are people who do jewelry or sew clothes, have restaurants and not on the road food stalls. They either work for the government; they are just a vendor who has their own building. You have to have your own shop. It doesn't matter what you sell, but the point is that you're selling stuff that you didn't have to get. You're the guy that gets the shipment to sell the stuff.

How do you think your life would be if you were lighter, or if you had a thinner nose, silkier hair?

I don't think the shape of my nose would change anything, but I do think the color of my skin would and my hair would. People would think that I'm more pretty if I had lighter skin. To speak more generally and more Western, and more with other people I see, for example the crowd in middle school, the White and East Asian groups of people that I was with, I definitely think they would have thought I'm prettier if I had straight hair, silky straight hair, and I was lighter. Even in college, I feel like that would make me more approachable if I had those features.

What if both your parents were also lighter?

If both my parents were lighter and I was Brown, my Brown features would be pointed out. But, if both of my parents were light and I was light, and I had no big nose, we would not have that same conversation and those features would not be brought up. I would just be existing.

I think in college, the difference, if I had lighter skin, is that I would probably be more approachable. I feel like the way I look now, people are scared to talk to me because they’ve never seen anybody like me before, and so they just don’t want to talk to me because I don’t offer them anything that they’re familiar with, so I feel like people don’t wanna talk to me firsthand. I always have to be like, ‘Hi, my name’s Chan nice to meet you,’ people never wanna go up to me, I always have to go up to them. The only people at school that did want to meet me first were Khmer people, so I think that says a lot! If I did appear lighter, if I didn’t have brown skin, I had straight hair and a nose that didn’t look like mine, then I feel like I would be part of a bigger group; I don’t even know what that feels like. I don’t even know what that feels like so I can’t even answer that question completely because I don’t even know what it’d be like. But I definitely feel like people would not have questions when they’d meet me.

If you were lighter, if you had silkier hair, a thinner nose, how do you think your relationship with other Cambodians generally be?

If I had those features, they would always be like, ‘Oh, Chan, you’re so pretty’ and say things to me like that. If I had straight hair, not a flat nose, and my nostrils weren’t as big, and I was light, and I was skinny, they would eat me up, bro! They would be like, ‘Oh, I have a friend…’ and try to set me up like, ‘Your daughter’s really pretty,’ but instead I’m short, I’m not super skinny but I’m not super big either, I’m average, my hair’s kind of coarse and dry, I’m brown, I’ve got my nose, and people just point that out.

Out of all the changes you just mentioned––your skin color, your hair, your features, your body shape––which one of those things do you think would play the greatest role in your favor with other Cambodians?

My skin color. With other Cambodians, all the ones that I’ve seen in America, at school, they’re all lighter than me; not only are they all lighter than me, they are all Chinese Cambodians. That’s the difference. I think there are a decent amount of them who don’t intend to discriminate against the way that I look, and the ones that I’ve personally interacted with don’t use their skin color or their heritage against me to make me feel worse. But, the fact that they don’t know the implications of being lighter or having Chinese heritage in a Cambodian context is ignorant and rooted in privilege that I think as a Cambodian you should be aware of, regardless if you’re indigenous Khmer, or Chinese Cambodian. Having an understanding of colorism within the context of where you come from is important, and I think crucial to understanding your own identity regardless if you’re Brown, or not Brown, because your identity is being Cambodian. That’s the number one thing that they always want to push is that they’re Cambodian, and the fact that they don’t understand, or don’t want to have that conversation––maybe they do understand––but the fact that that conversation doesn’t come up is crazy. It just seems so revolutionary to them to talk about this, and it’s not revolutionary whatsoever. It’s what being Cambodian is today.

How do you imagine marriage will be with respect to your skin tone? Would you want your spouse to be lighter or darker than you, would your parents want your spouse to be lighter or darker than you, do you think you’ll marry outside of your race or marry a Cambodian; how would skin color play as a factor in marriage for you?

I thought about this: that if I married somebody lighter, their family would hold so much prejudice against me, if they were Asian. Marrying into a White family, the first thing I thought about was ‘are they racist? Is the family racist? Am I being fetishized?’ and so that’s how I think about marriage in terms of White people. The first thing I always ask [are] those two questions: am I being fetishized, and are they racist.

What kind of person do your parents want you to marry? Do they want you to marry lighter, darker, inside of your race, outside of your race, what’s the ideal for them?

They understand what it means to marry a Korean person, or anything in proximity to Whiteness. They all have their own preconceived notions of what it means to marry lighter. For them, they all have their own stereotypes of the different ethnic groups in Asia, so even within the Asian sphere, my parents are like ‘if you marry in proximity to Whiteness within Asia, you’re still going to face problems, so I don’t know if you wanna do that.’ My parents understand what it means for me to be darker, and be Khmer, and be mixed Khmer with all these different things, and marry somebody else. My parents and I have talked about [how] for us, marrying lighter or marrying Whiter isn’t always the thing that’s going to make me happy, because the thing my parents don’t want me to experience is prejudice for a lifetime in my own house. 

Is there anything that you wanted to add, is there anything that you wanted to say, or what you would want to tell the people that are reading this, the Cambodian community, anything?

For me, I’m very proud to be Khmer, because I think we are a very kind people, and a very beautiful people, as well as smart people. I think Khmer people need to be on their own wavelength, doing what they want to do, and I think that as soon as we start to internalize those, Khmer people everywhere are going to be a lot more happy.

“I think Khmer people need to be on their own wavelength, doing what they want to do, and I think that as soon as we start to internalize those, Khmer people everywhere are going to be a lot more happy.”