Chantha, 28

Long Beach, California | January 22nd, 2023

Date of interview: August 30th, 2020

I'm an academic advisor at [a university in California]. Before that, I was in a graduate program to get my Master's in Student Affairs. And I really wanted to work in a college environment helping underserved students or underrepresented students, and I think that interest of mine stemmed from my own experience at college. I was very involved in the [Khmer student] group [during my undergrad]. Even though a lot of the members in that group, either weren't Khmer or were more culturally, you know, Chinese, but then they might have had some Khmer in their family, and they want to join the club to learn more about it. I liked that club because I was in a mentorship program where we mentored Khmer high school students and we learned about retention rates for Khmer high school students being really low. And, that really got me thinking like, “Woah, why is that so low? Why are we just kind of looped into another group of Asian students, but they're not really paying attention to the retention rates for Khmer students?” And so, all that thinking brought me to just want to work more in the higher education field and to address some of those disparities and achievement gaps, or opportunity gaps I should say.

And, yeah, I think I wasn't really proud of being Khmer growing up, but then through that club and just learning more about like the history of the U.S., in general, like all the racist systems that are in place, I kind of learned more about myself and my colorism and all that, and so I'm definitely more proud now and I'm still learning, and I'm learning a lot of things. It's like a lifelong process I think to learn more about the history of both the U.S. and Cambodia, and how it all intersects.

Do you know where in Cambodia your parents were from? 

I don't know where my dad's from but I know my mom's from Battambang and she was in a rural setting. She had lived in a farm with the fields, and she used to–her family would sell basically street food like she’d sell nom banchok/នំបញ្ចុក (Cambodian noodles), and like other foods that they’d make. My aunt used to like carry a stick on her shoulders and then with the little pots of food and then if someone wanted to buy the nom banchok/នំបញ្ចុក (Cambodian noodles), she'd scoop it from the little bowl and then sell it.

What was your school like?

I went through the public school system [in Long Beach]. So I grew up a lot [where] there's Cambodians all around me, so I didn’t feel isolated, I felt like this was just my own–this is the only thing I knew. It wasn’t until I went to college and I felt like my identity was more…it became more significant, basically, because I felt like I was one of the few Cambodians that I knew of and then I randomly had a class and during discussion, I met a girl who was also Cambodian. That’s when she introduced me to the [campus Khmer student group]. 

And so, yeah, I think–Long Beach has a lot of Cambodians so I think it…I guess that's why it wasn’t important to me growing up. But, I also told you I wasn't very proud of it because I had some friends [whose] parents are culturally Chinese, but they understood how to speak Khmer. And now when I go to their house, they would ask like, “Oh, is Chantha like real Khmer? Like, what’s her ethnicity?” and I just got the sense like, “Are they looking down on me? Why does that matter?” and her parents owned donut shops, so then I did get the sense that they were judging ethnically Khmer people, and they gave us a lot of stereotypes that we were lazy or not hard working, and all of that. And, I think that's why I kind of internalized that, and I didn't really think about my culture in a positive light until I learned more about it and the reasons behind all that internalized racism, going into college.

…

It’s hard to articulate that. You know, you're only in first grade and hearing these things you can't really explain it and so, you don’t realize how it affects you until later on. And I get this–I got the same question once. So I'm dating an Indian person, and my partner showed a picture of us to his mom. And she already knew I was Cambodian because he told her before she saw a picture of me. And then, when she saw the picture of me, she was like, “oh she's Cambodian right?” and then he was like, “yeah,” and she was like “Oh, she is a lot darker than I expected.” Because I guess she knew of another Cambodian person that his sister’s friends with, but she’s also light, and so I think I had to say “Oh, she might have–like, she might be culturally Cambodian, but maybe her parents or her ancestry has Chinese in her.” So it’s true that you don't really–most Cambodians I know are mixed, they have like Chinese, Vietnamese, Thai. I haven't met one who said that they know for sure that they're like, 100% ethnically Khmer and Indigenous.

…

I thought it was normalized too, like the constant talking about skin tone, skin color, like during the summers like, “don't go outside, you’re gonna get dark.” And then even like the other week, my uncle, he goes off of work and then his wife, “Oh, you look like you got lighter because you weren’t outside as much,” and then growing up, I heard my aunt and mom say, “Oh, she’s pretty but if only she was lighter,” or “she would be pretty if she was lighter.” And so, it's happened so much that you lose count of how many times that has been mentioned because it's just so normal for them.

“I thought it was normalized too, like the constant talking about skin tone, skin color…it's happened so much that you lose count of how many times that has been mentioned because it's just so normal for [my family].”

What is your ethnicity?

I identify as, I think with Khmer but I know we do have some Chinese origin. So, my mom’s mom, so my grandma, she's Indigenous. Her dad, my mom’s dad, has some Chinese, kat Chen/រកាត់ចិន (mixed Chinese). And then, on my dad's side, his mom has Chinese too. And his dad, I don't know anything about his dad’s ethnicity. So, I do have Chinese in me, but I don't know anything about their culture and I don't practice any of the cultural Chinese customs, and I've been told my whole life that I’m just Khmer. So, yeah, I mark Cambodian American if that's a choice on the form or just Southeast Asian. But I would say I’m mixed with Khmer and Chinese.

How connected do you feel to Khmer culture?

I think it varied based on what phase I was in my life. So, when I was younger, probably elementary school age, I felt more connected because in kindergarten class, for Cambodian New Year, our whole class learned a Cambodian dance, and then we present–perform it in front of the school. I used to go to [this neighborhood] which had a big celebration for Cambodian New Year. I remember going to wat/វត្ត or the temples, and I remember writing an article about Cambodian New Year for a school assignment. And then I think that's because my elementary school was very–like it was all basically students of color, like Latinx, Cambodians, and other Asian students, and then Black students. I rarely saw a White kid there. 

But then when I went to middle school, I went to–I took the bus to another school that was in a different area. There are a lot more White students, and I felt like I was becoming less connected to Cambodian culture because I was starting to assimilate into what I thought was American culture in middle school. 

And then I transitioned to high school and I became even more disconnected at that point because even though I had Cambodian students and peers in my class, they were more culturally Chinese and they didn't practice Khmer culture. And at that point, I also stopped going to wat/វត្ត (temple), I stopped celebrating Cambodian New Year at the parks or at the temples. So, the only connection at that point I had with Khmer culture was just being at home and eating Khmer food with a mom, speaking Khmer with her and my family. Other than that, there wasn’t a lot of connection outside of the home.

And then I reconnected with my Khmer heritage in college. That's when I became at the forefront of my identity because I got heavily involved in the [Khmer student] organization on campus and I felt like it was a huge part of my college identity, and ultimately after that it became…because it shaped my college identity so much, the identity became important after college as well as I worked with other students. I worked with international Chinese students after I graduated. Since then, I thought a lot about my identity in that space while I was surrounded by a lot of Chinese students who didn’t know about Cambodian culture at all.

And then I also was reminded of my ethnicity a lot when in professional work spaces. In those types of spaces, they don't want to ask you directly what you are. I guess they might think you might come off rude. But, they might just occasionally try to hint or like ask you where your family came from. In those spaces, being Cambodian felt more unique because some folks didn't know where Cambodia was–similar to what you’d experienced in first grade. But it didn’t seem as important to me in the professional space, my culture or my ethnicity. So I guess it comes and goes depending on the type of space I’m in. 

How do you feel about your facial features?

Growing up, I heard a lot of like, “Oh, Chantha you’re so khmao/ខ្មៅ (black)” compared to my cousins who were really light. And I…I didn't know what to think of it at that point, I just kind of took it in, but I noticed in high school, it did affect me more negatively. I think that's when I actually started using skin lightening soaps. So, I think junior year of high school, my mom bought the soaps and was like, “you should try this,” and then I did. It did lighten my skin, and I remember using it during the summers in college, as well because a lot of the [campus Khmer student club] members weren't Indigenously Khmer, and they're all lighter. And so, I constantly was thinking about two photos with each other, I’d look at myself compared to the other people in the photos and “why am I always the darker one?” And so, I would use the skin lightening soap then. So, for a while, I really did internalize colorism. I didn't feel as pretty if I was the darkest one in the picture. But right now, I am unlearning that in the wake of this year [2020]’s George Floyd protests and Black Lives Matter, colorism is being brought to the forefront as well in the Black community about how lighter skin Black folks have a lot more privilege than darker skin Black folks. 

I mean I stopped using skin lightening soaps maybe three years ago, and it's been pretty recent, but that was kind of the turning point for me to really embrace my natural color and feel self-confidence in my idea of beauty without like European ideals or beauty standards, basically. So now, I'm happy with myself and then I went to the beach yesterday, and I'm not like trying to cover myself and stay light or anything. But, I think it will take time ‘cause I still catch myself looking at myself when a photo’s taken of me and seeing my skin tone compared to the person next to me. So, it'll take time to unlearn that and not think that way. 

I like my fuller lips. I think that was commented by my family growing up too. Like, “Oh, Chantha’s lips are not thin, so they’re nice,” so I've never had a problem with that. All of my family members have thick hair, so I kind of wanted thicker hair. And facial features, for my eyes, I wanted them to be bigger, I think because all of my family members have bigger eyes, the ones that were regarded as like the pretty people in the family, they have bigger eyes. Nose, I was fine with because my mom has a broad nose like short broad nose, and growing up, she would tell me, “Oh, you'd have a nice nose.” So I think a lot of my self perception of my facial features like what's considered pretty or what's considered not was heavily influenced by what my family members were telling me growing up.

Can you describe your skin color?

I would describe my skin color as light brown. Like I told my boyfriend, “you're like cappuccino, I'm like mocha” <laughs>. So, I think it depends on the season too like when I’m in the winter, when I’m not outside, it does look a little bit like a lighter brown, but in the spring or summer, it becomes more of like a caramel.

How do others describe your skin color?

Yeah, so within my immediate family or extended family, so me, my mom, and my brother, but then my aunt and my cousin lived close to me like across the street, so we would consider them as we're all one unit. They would call me khmao/ខ្មៅ (black). But because my cousins were like really light, so I think that's just relatively, I’m khmao/ខ្មៅ (black). But I was never called srey khmao/ស្រីខ្មៅ (black girl) because there was another girl in our neighborhood who was darker than me, so a lot of people would call her srey khmao/ស្រីខ្មៅ (black girl). But, I always felt like I was just khmao/ខ្មៅ (black) compared to cousins, but not the darkest so then I wasn’t called srey khmao/ស្រីខ្មៅ (black girl) in the neighborhood. 

Outside of my family and Cambodians, I would be often–I would be known as the darkest one. So I had a Chinese roommate–it's funny because I don't think anyone's ever said it directly to my face that, “Oh you’re dark,” but they would imply it. Or, like when we're talking about clothes to wear, they can say something like, “Oh, this one matches with your skin tone more or this one might clash with your skin tone,” things like that. And they would call me brown sometimes, tan or brown for those who are not Cambodian, so other Asian ethnicities. I’m just thinking of like one summer, I went to visit my Vietnamese friend in Irvine. She was like, “Oh, you got darker,” ‘cause it was the summer and it was hot. So, yeah, they'll either say brown, dark, sometimes tan. Yeah, I've never really–I don't recall being the light one in the group.

Where do you think your skin color, your hair, and your features come from?

Hands down, everyone always says I look just like my dad, like the female version of him basically. So, I have his nose, his eyes, his lips, and probably his hair. I mean I've only known him since he was bald, so I don't know what his hair was before, but I guess his hair was straight. And I think the one thing I got from my mom was just her skin tone because he was lighter than I was, and I think I was darker when I was younger. I think I’m still showing what the results of years of skin lightening looks like. So basically as I'm stopping to use it, maybe over the time goes on, my natural brown skin will show up more and then it will be even more similar to what my mom is. So most of my features, I think, are Chinese except the skin tone in its natural state if you look at pictures of myself growing up; it’s more like the Indigenous Khmer folks.

How do you feel about your skin color?

I wish I didn't have to think about it as much as I do. So, sometimes it can be a hindrance like I often think, like how often do light skin people think about their skin color when they take a picture of themselves or when they're choosing the color of a clothing item they want to wear. Do they think about how it will match with their skin? And so sometimes I think it's just annoying how much I think about it so much. But I don't think it's ever made me feel not beautiful, or pretty, or attractive because I do think I’m not the darkest Cambodian folks that I’ve seen, so I do think that sometimes I try to be more adjacent to light skin Cambodians in that sense. So…I’m trying to think of the word that best describes it, but…I think it can be consuming, like how I feel about it. It consumes my thoughts and I don't think it should, and so I'm constantly unlearning and trying to fight those thoughts because I don't think it really matters. I can wear whatever I want and it’s not going to define beauty, so why think about it so much? So I guess it's just very prevalent and it can be annoying, but I don't want it to really impact my perception of self-beauty.

Would you say you are the darkest, lightest, or like the middle tone, amongst your family?

I would say I'm the same as my brother. So we're both considered the darkest among all my siblings. My half siblings from my dad's first marriage, his first wife was very light and he's pretty light as well, so all of his children from his first marriage are light skinned. But my brother, I guess, you know, I don't think colorism affects–I think it still affects males because I still hear, you know, one man being more handsome than the other man because he's lighter, but I think my brother–Well, who knows? I haven't really asked him. I don't think he really cares that much about skin tone and like how it affects his self-esteem off of that. But yeah, I think we're both considered the darkest in the family.

You said your mom was darker?

Oh, she's the same as us, I think. I think she considers herself more as a tomboy, but she doesn't really think about getting dolled up and being pretty. Because she didn't think about that a lot, she doesn't care about her skin tone as much. She sort of accepted it, like she knows it’s not considered beautiful and pretty in Cambodian culture, but she never really cared about beauty, you know, as a tomboy.

Given the entire Cambodian population from the darkest of Cambodians to the lightest of Cambodians, how would you say you fit in on that scale?

I’m going to guess that when I go to my family in the rural area that I will probably be more like from lightest to darkest, I would be more at the middle point leaning towards the darker side. That’s just like with my family members there. But, if I went to Phnom Penh or like the city where there's more diversity, I think with who's residing there, we might have more folks who are mixed with Chinese or Vietnamese there, I might be even closer to darker when compared to those around me.

It's interesting because my cousin has a friend who's also Cambodian who went to Cambodia and I think she–I consider her a little bit darker than I am, and when she went, some folks in Cambodia asked her, “oh you're from the U.S., so why are you dark?” as if they’re not from there or something, or I don’t know, it's not genetic, so it was odd. So I always expected myself to be asked that same question when I go.

Do you feel represented in Cambodian media?

I think I am represented. I don't consume a lot of Cambodian media but from what I seen that I see my mom watches, I do see folks that look like me but I think it's similar to what I've heard about Latinx media where the main characters can be lighter but then someone’s who’s like the help in the show is darker, so I think I looked at what my mom was watching on YouTube. There was one woman who was darker but I guess she was the nanny or caregiver. And then, the main character was lighter so I do see myself represented, but I think the roles aren't as diverse for darker skinned folks.

If you were to be casted in Cambodian media one day, what role do you think that they would cast you as based on what you see in the media?

I think I would be like the main female character’s best friend or like a supporting role. I would go meet her and talk about whatever issue or conflict she's experiencing. Maybe it's like a rom com and she has a love interest that I have been helping her throughout that. I think I'd be dressed professionally like I'm living in a city, I have an office or corporate type of job. So, I’d be wearing a suit, or just regular casual clothes, but more like in a metropolitan city type of area. And, yeah, I think I can imagine myself being casted in that role, because I do think I exhibit a lot of Chinese features. So I think those types of features or actors are like in drama, those types of roles are set in the city.

Why is it or why do you think that these elite spaces in Cambodia are significantly lighter? 

I think it's because if you want to be as general as you can be, I would say White supremacy, like Europeans or White people have been dominating, like they've been pulling power basically throughout history–White folks. And so, communities of color want power too so then they're trying to find how they can attain that power or be as equal as those who have power and so, I think some methods of doing that are Asian communities or other communities trying to be White adjacent. So, they are trying their hardest to practice or assimilate into White culture, and that can be portrayed also by colorism. So, those who have lighter skin are more favorable further towards those roles and mainstream media. And for the elitist spaces, whether it's just who owns companies or who has the most wealth, I think some of that comes from China. I don't know the whole history about it but I know China has a lot of companies and they have a very entrepreneurial spirit and there might be a lot of Chinese folks who’ve moved to Cambodia and settled there, and they brought their wealth with them. 

I've heard about this from my family, the stereotype that if you are rich, you’re not working out on the farms or out in the sun, and then you have lighter skin, nicer softer skin. And if you are a rural farm worker, then you’re out in the sun and you're darker. So that's another misconception or stereotype I think where the richer folks have lighter skin. So, I would say it's like history; overall, I think it has to do with where power is held, like what groups hold the most power, and then those who have less power or are being oppressed, they're trying to simulate or emulate this culture because they believe that will bring them power.

Describe how colorism affects your life.

I think colorism has really made me feel not confident at times, and speaking about growing up and not wanting to identify as Cambodian or not like highlighting that aspect of me because of the stereotypes that I heard around me. So, I just noticed like other Asian groups, Chinese or Chinese Khmer folks, Vietnamese, they would own businesses, they would be more well off, they would own homes. My mom had just rented her whole life here in the U.S., and that made me more driven in education. 

But once I got to that point which was getting into college, I didn't really have anything else guiding my path and my interest. So, that was how colorism or being Cambodian American affected me up until college. I think that sense of failure of not being able to obtain a medical profession or like a high paying job, it’s still lingering in my mind like I do feel sometimes insecure. So, on the one hand, I wanted to beat the numbers. I still got a college degree, I got a master's degree, I went to [university]. So, in that sense, I have proven that I’m not the stereotypical Cambodian that they assume Cambodians to be, which is like lazy, doesn’t graduate, doesn't have a job, but at the same time, when I’m comparing myself to some of my mom's friends daughters or sons who have actually became an engineer or became a pharmacist and all of that, then I feel like, “oh, I failed.” I didn't actually prove to them that I can get those professions. 

So, sometimes I still feel like I tried to prove myself but other times, I come to terms with the fact that I didn’t need to, like that was never my purpose to begin with, to prove them wrong. I should have my own path. So, [it] depends on the day I wake up I guess how I feel <laughs>. But I think it's always going to be there. Like, right now I have a job, it's a steady job, it doesn't pay as much as the pharmacists or accountant, or anything like that, but I think I'm still stable. So I think once I get my own house, if I can afford a house in Southern California, things like that, then I think the whole need to prove myself soon will disappear ‘cause Cambodians talk a lot. Rumors, like they gossip, I guess, so they're always like, “oh, what’s Chantha up to right now? Is she married yet? Does she have a house yet?” So at some point, they stop talking once you’ve already checked off all those things that they're asking about. So until then, I know I have to just be confident about my own life choices and not care about what they're thinking. But, the need to prove themselves wrong is always gonna be there, but I'm not gonna let that define all my actions.

What do you think contributes the most to your attitude about your skin color?

I think, unfortunately, it’s a lot of other people’s words. So, I'm choosing to surround myself with people who don't say a lot of words that are related to colorism. So, hanging out with people who embrace that dark skin is still beautiful and hanging out with people who don't value money or salary as the defining factor in success. I don't really want to hang out with people or friends who are obsessed with making a lot more money.  

Also, just coming into terms that parents, aunts, uncles, might come from a different time where because they are refugees and their priority was survival, and for survival, you need money and so I understand why for family, money is really important. Understanding where they're coming from, and where I'm coming from, where I did have a lot more privilege to actually choose the major that I like, or like a profession that brings me more fulfillment and purpose that’s more than just a paycheck. So just being more open minded about the history behind people's perspective and their perspective on things. Just understanding there's no right and wrong way in life.

I think it's interesting because we will never know how others see you versus how you see yourself unless they say it. So, I’m just thinking that one time, I had a co-worker, she's Latina and she was using emoji as herself that was way darker than she actually was. And so, we were telling her, “Why are you using this? Your skin color’s a lot a lighter,” but she felt like she was that dark because she grew up thinking that she was dark. So I think she just saw herself as a darker individual, but really the way I saw her was like, “well I'm darker than you,” and this skintone actually matches more for me than for you. So it's interesting how people view themselves…So, everyone's conception is different, so I think–yeah, I'm [starting] to realize maybe I'm not as dark as I thought I was growing up <chuckles>.

Do you have any history with skin lightening creams?

Yeah, I think the first product was introduced in junior year of high school. It was like a little bottle of face cream, and my mom gave it to me. My mom gave it to me and I was told to put it on overnight and just sleep with it on. And I just did it and then I noticed comparing my high school ID from sophomore year to junior year, it was a lot lighter. And even my friends told me, “woah, you look lighter,” and so it worked. But that bottle was smaller and I didn’t think too much of it, and the lightness still remained so I thought, “Okay, that’s fine. I’m lighter now, I don’t need to do it again.” 

When I got to college, I got darker again or I guess back to my natural skin because the product faded off, and that's when I started skin lightening soap that my mom got. I think she got it from a Cambodian store, and then there's also some of those products at Filipino markets, so I got it from there too. And I usually use that in the summers. I didn't really use it in the winter or spring [because] I knew that I would get darker in the summer like going out in the summer heat a lot. So, I used to use it during the summer time as a way to not get darker. 

And at the time, I realized that it wasn’t really good to use it because it was stripping off things that would help prevent me getting sunburnt or natural skin protectants. I think I stopped using it in 2015 or 2016, and I stopped using it right before I started graduate school and I think that’s because I started learning more about why this was wrong. Like why is this a perpetuation of products and instigating more insecurity for dark women, why is this overall problematic, and so I didn’t want to support it. So, I was like, “Okay, let’s stop using it.” That’s one way how that’s been affecting me, and I think that growing up, I always was conscious of the colors of clothing I wore. I didn't want to wear white because I thought it would contrast more to my darker skin tones. I would stick to black or teals and blues. I think I didn’t want to wear a bright yellow or anything ‘cause I was a little self-conscious about how it matched with my skintone.

I don't know why I used those products and I didn’t think about colorism during those times until later on. And that’s when I started to learn that it isn't something I should be doing, and I should stop at that point. And now I’m trying to unlearn those things I mentioned earlier, like when I take a picture of myself, I don't want to think about how I look relative to the person or whoever else is in the picture, and I also don’t wanna think about when I choose clothing items, how would that color look on me. I just wanna choose it because I like the color or I like the clothing.

…

It's a learning experience and it’s…hopefully overtime, things will change. I think it's gonna take a long time for Cambodia's to be more inclusive because like you said, there’s not a lot of conversation in Cambodia. It seems like it's so normalized, and so I don't know if we're gonna see more representation of darker Cambodians in media or TV shows or if we go to those apsara photo studios, if they're going to have more examples of darker Cambodians with Indigenous features there. I think it will take a long time, but I think babysteps like this project and other projects that scholars are doing will help. And we just have to keep telling ourselves to not listen to those noises.

What kind of jobs do you see people who look like you working in Cambodia, largely?

I’m not very familiar with modern Cambodian society, so I’m not sure. I would imagine people like myself working a lot in like working class positions, so a lot of tourism sites, retail, restaurants, things like that. Like if I went to Cambodia, I’d see people who look like me, going on a tour in Angkor Wat, or a restaurant, and there's a waiter. I don't know if I would see people who look like me as the doctor or as a business woman. Because I’m assuming those folks are more mixed, Chinese heritage.

What kind of jobs do you see people who are much darker than you, Cambodians working, largely?

I would imagine those folks are like street vendors. And I know they have a lot of folks who are, I guess they give rides–I don’t know what they call it but they give motorcycle rides, like tuk tuk, like those tourists folks. And maybe they're more in the rural Cambodia area as farmers. Yeah, I would imagine them more working class as well.

What about Cambodians who are much lighter than you?

I imagined them where they're more like secretarial jobs like in buildings and offices. They’re more in corporate types of buildings and jobs in Cambodia.

How do you think your life would have been different if you were much lighter, if you had different features like a smaller pointier nose, just basically looked like the ideal Cambodian woman that's on the pages of magazines?

I think I would have a lot more confidence in myself growing up because I wouldn’t be hearing a lot of comments about my skintone. I think my family might expect me to easily find boyfriends or like suitors because there have been comments about that because I didn't have a boyfriend for a while. I think my first boyfriend was like age 25, whereas like my cousins they had boyfriends a lot earlier. And so, I did hear comments like, “Well, they’re pretty. Chantha’s not that pretty, maybe that's why she's not dating as earlier,” and all that. So I think I probably would have an easier time with that, navigating that and like introducing my love or romantic relationships to family.

Yeah, I think I would just have more confidence in my physical appearance. I would imagine that would be very influential just how I carry myself in interviews, how I carry myself like in professional spaces. I do think those who've had more confidence in themselves appearance wise and also internally will come off as more successful in professional spaces.I don't know if there's data behind like more what people consider attractive people, I think like, people say it's easier for them to get jobs, but I don't know if there's any actual data behind that. But I think if you know you’re attractive and you feel that you're attractive, then bring about confidence in the interview, in the professional space, the way you carry yourself, and that confidence could bring positive results because employers, bosses, they like confident people.

What do you think your relationship with your family would be like?

Probably much more positive. I hate the word positive because I think I try not to hold it against them because I think for them, it's just normal, the colorism that's prevalent in the culture. And there might be sometimes bitterness or a little bit resentment in how they describe what beauty is and how its affected me. Sometimes I feel like if only they tried harder not to talk about those things in front of me, then maybe my own confidence would be affected by it negatively growing up. So then if I were to be born whiter or those ideals of beauty in Cambodia, I feel like my family would [offer] more support.

How do you think your relationship with other Cambodians in general would be different?

Well, I’m assuming it’s going to be worse because right now, I think I have a good relationship with other Cambodians who share a similar experience on colorism and sort of bond with our experiences and connect that way based off of being darker. So, if I were the lighter one, with the pointier nose, and lighter skin, then maybe I would not…I don’t know…where would I put myself in the situation. I'm trying to think. Like maybe I would be discriminated in the sense of “you’re not Cambodian enough” if I came off as more lighter and more pointier nose like, “you’re more Chinese than me,” and so, maybe I would feel like I wouldn’t belong in the Cambodian community because I would appear more Chinese than Cambodian to them.

What role does your skin color play in marriage for you?

Well, I think in Cambodian culture, if they think you're considered a pretty woman or a beautiful woman, it’s easier for you to find suitors and you'll have more places to choose. So for example, my aunt who’s lighter skinned, she’ll find a husband out of Cambodia out of love. Versus my mom, who is darker, has thick coarse hair, and has a really broad nose or Indigenous features. For her, I think for her when she got to the U.S. and she was still single and she was more on the older side, which was like 34 or 35, at that point, I think she felt like she had less options. So, she should just marry whoever would agree to this arranged marriage. So, she was in an arranged marriage, and so I think when it comes to colorism and skin tone and how it intersects with marriage in Cambodian culture, the bride who has more beautiful considered skin would have options and more freedom of choosing a suitor, and whereas the darker or less beautiful bride was told to just choose or be with who you can be really, like don't be picky basically. So, that’s the perception I got from observing the older generation and how their marriages came about in my family.

For me, I mean I'm a Cambodian American so I grew up not adopting all those ideals, and I'm in like a–I don’t really consider it interracial ‘cause Indian is South Asian. I'm dating an Indian guy so I think marriage for me would be a lot different. He is lighter than me, so I know colorism in Indian culture is prevalent too, so the lighter the Indian bride, the more beautiful she would be. But, I think both of our parents are more Americanized and don’t have that [mindset]. I guess they care less about that. I saw a comment that I told you about earlier about my boyfriend's mom [where she was] like, “Oh, she’s Cambodian? I thought she would be lighter,” just from seeing the lighter Cambodians.

Have you ever wanted your spouse to be lighter or darker than you, growing up or at any time?

I actually did not want to date or marry a Cambodian guy who was going to be like half Chinese or like culturally Chinese, but their family was–I guess I didn’t want to be with a guy whose parents were Chinese but lived in Cambodia, because I felt like those folks looked down on Indigenous culturally Khmer people, so I felt like I didn't want to date or marry that background because I felt like their parents would judge my family or my background, especially because my mom came from the rural and I felt like Chinese folks in Cambodia would judge rural folks in Cambodia. So I think that did impact who I wanted to date, who I wanted to marry.

And in terms of being lighter than me, yeah I think I subconsciously would like to feel more connected to more guys that were lighter than me because they're the idea of [growing] older with this person, we could potentially produce lighter kids. And then I thought if we had lighter kids, they wouldn’t have to live with colorism that's so prevalent in America. But I would consciously try not to make the same statements that I heard growing up, whether or not they were going to be born darker than me or lighter than me. But yeah, it definitely crossed my mind, the skin tone of my partners.

How do you think your life would have been different if both of your parents were very light skinned Cambodians? 

So if both of my parents were really light, I am assuming that they also brought privilege with them and wealth to America. And so, they would probably be homeowners, business owners, and regard themselves more highly than their current background where my mom's background as a farmer in Cambodia. And I think perhaps that would have afforded me the luxury of living in a nicer neighborhood, going to nicer school, and being able to afford like test prep classes, all of that. I mean I still was accepted into [college], but I think I always had imposter syndrome while I was at [college]. My SAT scores were actually pretty low compared to the average. And I did get straight A's but then that was relative to where I was at, so I didn't feel as smart as the other kids there. But I think if I grew up kind of with confidence in myself and my abilities and my overall confidence that my parents would give me, I think I would live life a lot differently. I would live life with a lot more self-efficacy, basically.

I think I would have a lot of the privilege that light folks have, and I keep thinking about how…so this year with all the talk about Black Lives Matter movements and colorism. There’s been some criticism about the Asian American community, and I keep hearing the term White adjacent. So I think if I was a lighter skin tone and my parents were lighter, I would be part of that White adjacent group, where I would kind of embrace and utilize my privilege, like I would know, “oh, I'm light skin, I have a lot of privilege,” and not experience what darker folks are experiencing.

I don't know if I would be self aware of that, but I think it would definitely consider myself as that White adjacent that might perpetuate the model minority myth, and all of that. Yeah, it's a really tough question, I have never really had to imagine myself growing up lighter skinned so it's interesting how it would unfold. 

If you could change anything in your life, what would you change or what would you do and why?

So, if I could change anything in my life…Well, I’m loving my skin tone and who I am now, so I wouldn’t change my skin tone growing up, but I would want to paint my family’s perception of it. So getting rid of all the microaggressions about skin tone, all those subtle comments about who’s pretty in the family, who’s not. That wouldn't have existed, growing up. And then I would just grow up just proud of who I was and believing in myself, not having to prove anything about being Cambodian American. In that ideal world, there wouldn't be this perceived ethnic hierarchy of ethnicities and skin color. Being Cambodian versus Vietnamese or Chinese, there wouldn't be some sense of hierarchy to that. And, I would not care about…I would like to see my actual interest of passions in the start. 

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[T]hen I think, basically undoing some of the decisions I made based off of my need to prove myself, I would get rid of that and pursue my own interest or passion, and be confident in how I look.

Knowing that this is gonna be on a public website eventually, is there anything you would like to add or say to the people reading this or just the Cambodian community in general?

I guess it's a message for any Cambodian women who are still in the midst of feeling beautiful and if they're still using skin lightening soaps or products, to stop. That’s basically my encouragement for them to stop and surround themselves with those who love their skin, and love who they are and how they look, and their choices in life because basically it's my call to really help people really think about how society and systems has affected their perspective of themselves in life, and start questioning more why do you feel this way, why do you act this way? Is it really what you want or what a product of a system that you're a part of? Basically to love themselves and and keep continuing to learn to love themselves because I'm still learning too.