Loretta, 24

Long Beach, California | September 9th, 2024

Date of Interview: August 19th, 2020

I work as an associate research specialist, so I typically do more lab stuff. 

But before that, I actually graduated from [university name] in 2018. I majored in biomedical engineering…I do have an interest within generally, the medical field, which is why I'm doing what I am now. I'm actually going to be preparing to take the GRE soon and then planning to go back to school in maybe two years time. I'm still debating what program I'm going to be in. That's where I am right now. Yeah, exciting time. 

I'm born and raised in Long Beach, California for the most part. And Long Beach is pretty well known to have a pretty large Cambodian population. I guess my first experience with colorism would be, I think, kind of on the brink of colorism versus also just being a Cambodian American. There's also that aspect of when you see on TV, you see it's mostly White people that are actors and actresses and that's also the beauty standard. And the only real Asians that are shown are usually East Asians like Lucy Liu. And obviously, for the most part  East Asians tend to be more light skin. And when I was definitely growing up, it affected sort of my beauty standards even from a, I would say, very young age. 

Because I remember, I think it might have been in elementary school where when I was younger, because as you’re a kid you always play outside, and you're in the sun all the time. And I remember from this day, this comment that she made. She said, “no matter what you do, you still look dirty.” And that's something that really stuck with me throughout elementary school. So, yeah, that was, I don't know if she would remember that but that's something that I always remember. But yeah, I think that was the first sort of instance where I just doubted why the color of my skin was the way it was. And also, especially since my mom is kind of lighter skinned. And my dad isn't. I remember thinking, oh, if I had a White guy or a lighter skinned dad maybe I would have been lighter skin and I would have been prettier or more attractive, or those weird sort of weird standards, right? So, there was that aspect through elementary school. 

“She said, ‘no matter what you do, you still look dirty.’”

I didn't really know a lot of Cambodians that went to the same elementary school as I did. So most of my friends were just White girls. So, I just remembered we came up with these silly little nicknames for each other. One of them, it was really basically my two best friends. One of them would say, “Oh, she was vanilla” and the other one would say that “oh she was butterscotch” and then they're, “oh, Loretta you could be chocolate.”

So, at the time because I loved chocolate, I sort of embraced that but at the same time I felt I still felt there was a kind of a divide between us. And what's interesting is that they went to a different middle school than I did. And I think I completely lost contact with them. Even though we were quite close, or at least I thought we were quite close in elementary school. 

Also during the time in elementary school, I also participated in my Arts Academy where Neak Kru/អ្នកគ្រូ (Teacher) was teaching the girls in Long Beach, traditional classical Khmer dancing, and I believe I joined when I was maybe third grade or fourth grade. Because since my sister was in it, my mom was like, “oh you should join it too.” That's how it usually goes, right? So I remember doing that and it was kind of my first real experience with a bunch of other Cambodian kids.

But I remember one thing in particular that I absolutely hated was putting makeup on, because I thought “hey, just use the same sort of foundation for all the girls, obviously.” So then I remember always ugly crying afterwards because I thought I looked so ugly with the makeup on because of it. It obviously didn't match my skin tone so it just made me look weirdly pale and not myself. And then I remember always being pretty upset and trying to run away from the mings/មិង and the oms/អុំ (aunties) trying to put makeup on. Because I was just like, “I don't want to put makeup on,” but they're like “you have to because it's stage makeup.”

My experience definitely started I would say pretty young in elementary school. And middle school was a time where I really didn't really think about that. And then, because I wasn't really around Cambodian people, at least Cambodian peers at that time. So it was usually more micro-racism, a different topic, but in high school, when I took the class again being surrounded by my Cambodian peers. I remember this is definitely a time where I was also super into Kpop and with Koreans. They really do love the super pale skin as well but I think I also at that time, learned because maybe because I was also on a track and field team, and being around different groups of people. I learned to be like “yo, my skin is pretty cool the way it is.” So it didn't affect me as much but I still was very aware of the fact that with Asians, or any race in general, they always think oh ‘the lighter, the better.’ And then, even though I didn't actively fight it, I was very much kind of over that standard. 

But the positive experience I had in my classes is that one of the guys was sort of ranting about how he recently went to Cambodia and he was saying, “oh, all these girls bleach their skins or use whitening products is what you guys do that I don't think you guys need to do that.” And of course I'm not saying I need validation from a guy, but at the same time, the other girls in my class are “yeah there’s really no reason to do so.” Yeah, everyone's kind of beautiful in the skin that they're in. So, even with that positive experience, I really notice how all the classes kind of divided for the most part, because he was a pretty loud and rambunctious person so he was saying you don't need [it and to] basically try and tell us you don't need no man to try to tell you that your skin is too dark. But some of the other people in the class are kind of quiet, so I would think, maybe they thought that they felt that they still believe that lighter skinned was better but then there was another half that was very vocally agreeing with him like “yeah, you're right.” So, that was more of a positive sort of experience. 

But then, jumping around in high school when I hung out with, because I kind of hung out with different groups of friends throughout. And then in senior year, I befriended, I just called them my group of Asian friends because they were Vietnamese, they were Chinese, we were all kind of a mix of just different Asians. So, I remember going out on a run with them, hanging out outside the school, which is pretty rare for me honestly. So, I remember one of them had an umbrella, and obviously it's sunny because it’s Southern California. So then she had kind of a rain umbrella but she was holding it and then the other friend is like, “yo, can I get underneath that.” And then another friend had her hood on, even though it was, I want to say, it wasn't super hot but it was warm. Yes, I want to say it was 70 degrees, 80 degrees. There was no need for her to put on her hood and then it was obviously a long sleeved hood. I was like “what are you guys doing,” and they're like, “Nah, I don't want to get any darker.” We were already spending time in the sun, I remember just not really saying anything to them but then, just thinking that what they were doing was kind of dumb but just, “aren't you guys hot?” And they're just like, “no, but we don't want to get any darker. Oh, you know, the sun. The sun is bad for your skin,” that kind of stuff. So I was just like, oh well. I didn't really have I guess a good response to that at the time so that's all that sort of encapsulates my experience with colorism.

How would you say you fit in, in Long Beach, with the Cambodian population in Long Beach. Would you say skin color wise you were one of the darkest, in the middle, or the lightest and how would you say you fit in there?

In Long Beach, I want to say maybe in the middle, might be towards the darker spectrum. Yeah, just a little bit. Yeah, I would think so.

Because you're mentioning that you're hanging out with a lot of other Asians as well since Long Beach is super diverse, what would you say is the conception of Cambodians as an ethnic group in comparison to other Asians?

That's pretty loaded because I especially, particularly during high school. I think this is why I kind of separated myself from the Cambodian community. Because it was basically the stereotype that Cambodians were the ghetto Asians. We were the not-so-smart Asians. There weren't a lot of Cambodians particularly in my classes, in AP classes, and accelerated classes. So I definitely felt... Definitely now I realize what I did was stupid but I definitely sort of tried to separate myself from my Cambodian peers because of that sort of stereotype that we're the ghetto, dumb Asians. And at the same time, I feel the model minority still applied to me because even when I did well, my other White peers would be “of course you did well, you're Asian” So there's this sort of weird mix up of what do you expect. 

I think there was definitely expectations as to what they expected me to speak like because one thing that I think that's always bothered me throughout my life is that people would say “oh you sound like a White girl.” And I'm like, “Yeah, I do. I get it, I say ‘like’ a lot and I would appreciate it if you'd say I have a valley girl accent and because it's true. I'm from California, I can't help it.” So I think that's always something that really bothered me deeply. It's just they see me and I think they see this, the skin color I have and they have this kind of prejudice. Sorry, what's the word I'm trying to think of? Preconceived notion that Cambodians are ghetto so they probably speak a certain way. So then when they see me they're just, for the most part, I would say generally White people would–they kind of make a face that says ‘I didn't expect you to talk that way.’ And even, I guess with my Cambodian peers because I separated myself from them, I wasn't able to interact with them as much as I could have. And the ones that I did, it was very kind of surface level interaction and we never really talked. I guess even high school for me either. I never talked really deeply to anyone, because that's high school.

I would say specifically sometimes going to Cambodia, because we would vacation there once every several years. And it's always interesting that they see my mom and they know she's Cambodian but then they see my sister and I, and they're like “oh, you guys aren’t Cambodian.” It’s also being Cambodian American but also because we're darker than our mom. There was always that sort of that issue in that, people didn't expect my mom to look a certain way. Or if I was with my mom, they didn't believe that she was my mom, which was kind of weird to think about. 

Where did you come across this “Oh, you guys aren't Cambodian maybe because of your skin color.” 

Yeah, it was in Cambodia when we go to and when we were visiting to Angkor Wat, or actually it was at the embassy, I don't remember what we were doing. I think we were just visiting the American Embassy there. This is also when I was pretty young so I'm trying to remember but they were just saying to my mom you're Cambodian so you can do this and that, but your kids can’t ‘cause they aren't. Yeah, so it was kind of weird.

But even then, even I feel, with my Cambodian peers, they don't recognize that I'm Cambodian sometimes. This is back in America. I'd be like “I'm Cambodian” and they're like “are you full Cambodian?” And it's, for the most part, a mix from Cambodian peers and from just other peers. They'd be, “Oh from when I first saw you, I thought maybe you were half something” or I definitely remember a comment. It was “I thought you are some sort of Latina.” And so I was just, it is kind of hurtful that, even with Cambodian peers that they don't recognize, or accept the fact that I am Cambodian. So I think that was also one of the reasons why I kind of ostracized them as well because I felt I couldn't fit in with them.

What would you say because when you say, which is very true because everybody honestly says this, Cambodians are known as the more ghetto Asians? What would you say is the main determinant for that because  other Asians may be low income as well?

I guess with how neighborhoods that are known to be where I live in is what's called Cambodia Town are where most of the Cambodians are and it is a lower income sort of neighborhood in comparison to other parts of Long Beach. So I guess that would definitely be one of the reasons why that sort of negative stigma stems from. But yeah, that's interesting because I never really noticed that it's very much, for Cambodians, is very much a label for us as not being as achieving or as smart as other Asians, per se, but yeah I think so. 

I think in comparison to Cambodians, [other Asians are] a smaller population as well. So, I think they're more scattered rather than Cambodians. I think we do have Cambodia Town. So, which I think is interesting because I actually now thinking about it, I did know a Cambodian guy that did live in Signal Hill and Signal has definitely known to me the more bougier part and it's not even Long Beach. It's a different city, and definitely a bougier city. 

So even when there are exceptions to that, there's still, I guess that stigma. And I guess maybe people just assume because it's not as if in my classes, I was the only Cambodian And then, there were definitely other Cambodians in there as well but I guess when you think about it, there is not as many Cambodians. Even with the large population of Cambodians that went to my school, I guess when you see the Cambodians that are in the AP classes or the upper classes, it's definitely it doesn't really match how many Cambodians are actually going there. So maybe, maybe that's another reason why they think.

How would you say for example, very much lighter skinned Cambodians then are viewed in comparison to those stereotypes that you mentioned and the same for darker skinned Cambodians?

I would say, yeah, ‘cause now that I'm thinking that I'm trying to think back to high school, there were a lot of Cambodians that are mixed either half Chinese, half White or half something, or just are just a mix of different things. I feel there was this girl that looked more stereotypical Chinese rather than Cambodian because she's much lighter skin. She had the monolid eyes rather than the double lids that usually most Cambodians would have, so she very much looked more Chinese and Cambodian. And I noticed, not really how other people treat her but just how maybe she acted towards other Cambodians, I guess. She was kind of me in the fact that she didn't really interact with the other Cambodians as much. And her peers were more aligned towards, I would say the lighter skinned Asians and White people, for the most part, and from what I saw, was her kind of friend group as those people.

I feel like kinda going back to when I did visit Cambodia recently, and I would say, during the winter of 2017 to 2018 when we all went for winter break. Definitely, especially now that there are more Chinese people coming into Cambodia and that's kind of changing the sort of ethnicity within Cambodia, as well. And with any country, there's always gonna be mixing and right, and so I definitely notice how differently they treat someone that might be lighter skin. And this might also just be a race thing, but also just, generally speaking, if you're lighter skinned you get treated a certain way. Typically more positive, I would think.

I definitely could see the difference, how they treated my mom versus me. And that's one thing. There's probably other factors as well because she's older and different things as well. But for the most part, even with other people. Even with watching TV, even what was interesting about even the actors and actresses for certain dramas that were popular in Cambodia, where, even if they weren't as light skinned, I noticed how the dramas with or whoever was the director or whoever did the lighting made them look. The lighting was just super bright, so bright that it was kind of washing all the features out and making them look super pale which. And I don't think they're that pale, but they were using this super bright lighting just to make them look paler.

There were times where I, this might also just because I'm Cambodian American and sometimes going through Cambodia there’s this kind of weird divide between us. I’m not saying that you can't be Chinese Cambodian and that's not being a real Cambodian but at the same time, sometimes the way I was treated made me feel they acted as if they were more Cambodian. And that made me feel a little off. I have really mixed feelings about that because I'm Cambodian American but then at the same time, I don't understand why they feel the need to treat me differently because they feel they're more Cambodian than I am, even though there's no real way to be. What's more Cambodian, and it's also just maybe part of that is just kind of looking down on me because of my skin, being, “oh, look at this and look at this darker skin.” 

It feels kind of weird because again I'm not saying, because you're ethnically not Cambodian you're not Cambodian. Ethnicity and nationality comes becomes kind of messy but I do feel I get that sort of feeling from them because I can't really–my Khmer’s not really that great so maybe also one of the factors and but, definitely, it feels they feel they definitely are more Khmer than darker skin Khmer people which doesn't make a lot of sense.

…

I was just thinking about sometimes we are more focused on dividing each other rather than uniting. And, it definitely again goes back to the very, sort of, super old school Asian thinking that, “oh if you're lighter skin that means you must be wealthier or you must be smarter and must be more beautiful.” And that's something that's entrenched so deeply. And I would say across all of Asia, which is, or even across all cultures, because even, I don't know, talking to, my coworker, she's Mexican and she would always talk to me about her experiences with colorism within her community and how her mom was would always tell her, “Oh, I wish, man, if only you were a little bit more lighter skin”, or this and that. It's just, oh, you should use these beauty products because she was–my girl was busy kind of studying or doing other stuff but then her mom would always kind of try to be, “Oh, Why don't you do these more things to try to look prettier or lighter skinned or something or don't spend too much time out in the sun.” So it's interesting that, unfortunately, colorism is across all cultures but I definitely see how there's a nuance of Cambodians especially. Then it becomes not only colorism but there's a little bit of even maybe internalized racism and ethnic groups kind of combating what it means to be Cambodian. 

What would you say is your ethnicity or your ethnic makeup then at least from what you've understood from your childhood and your family?

I think I need to ask my mom again but I think [her dad’s] half Chinese but then for the most part, my grandma on my mom's side is full Cambodian. So then my mom’s a quarter Chinese and Cambodian but I don't know ethnically what that means. And for my dad, I believe he's, again, I think it's just generally, because I don't know my grandparents from his side. They passed so I'm not really sure but I think for the most part, he's very much ethnically Khmer. Yeah, I would say, I would say maybe I think my sister did one of those 23andMe testing and she said we were definitely 99% Cambodian. Or not 99, I'm trying to remember the breakdown. It was 90 something Cambodian and a certain percent Chinese and then very minuscule percentages of other various Asians.

How do you feel about your facial features? So this can include your eyes, your nose, your lips, your face shape.

Yeah, I remember definitely when I was younger, I wanted a higher nose right because you want that sort of profile, but now I have definitely grown to like my face, whatever. I think it looks okay. Even going to Srok Khmer/ស្រុកខ្មែរ (Cambodia) and going to the temples and then my sister would point to one of those statues and she'd be “oh that's you.” I was like, “yeah, we actually do” because of the broader nose and the lips and the eye features. It actually does make me feel kind of good in a way that I think I look more authentically Khmer. Again not saying, I'm more Khmer than other people but I do appreciate that my features are Khmer. I think that's also one of these other issues that I have that some Cambodians see me and they don't think I'm Khmer, but I think I look more ethnically Khmer than you do. 

Can you describe your skin color?

I guess brown. I think I was addressing myself whenever I'm talking about racist instances that I have experienced, I'm always kind of narrative the person saying what is this little brown girl doing? So yeah, I guess brown. 

How do others describe your skin color so this can be outside of the Cambodian community but also inside of the Cambodian community? if anyone has ever called you khmao/ខ្មៅ (black), sreymao/ស្រីមៅ (black girl)?

Yeah, sraem/ស្រអែម (tan, connoting beauty) definitely. My mom would affectionately call me like, she’s like “mien sbek sraem/មានស្បែកស្រអែម (you have tan skin, tan connoting as beautiful).” For the most part, I haven't gotten to my face that I’m khmao/ខ្មៅ (black). But, I don't know from the the way my mom sometimes comes to me after talking to other Khmer people. I've never asked her straight out but I do think that she's trying to defend me, and that they probably did say something, “oh, your daughter so dark,” or something, maybe not even meaning to. Sometimes it's just so automatic. But yeah, I definitely more hear more affectionately like sraem/ស្រអែម (tan, connoting beauty).

There's a certain connotation with it, right?

Where do you think your skin, hair, and facial features come from? 

I would definitely say skin tone was definitely from dad. I think it was also talking about more of my experiences again, just because my mom was lighter skinned, they never thought I was my mom's daughter and that was something that really bothered me. But later on in high school or later on in high school and in college, my friends would see me and my mom and they're, “Oh, I can see where you got your features from.” So then I think I definitely got my cheekbones from my mom or just generally my facial structure from my mom. But they're also both pretty Cambodian so I'm trying to think, where exactly, would that come from.

How do you feel about your skin color?

Definitely when I was younger, I definitely wished I was lighter skin so I didn't really feel comfortable in my skin in elementary school time. Middle school, I kind of put it on the back burner. It wasn't the most important thing to me so it was definitely not in a place where I was comfortable with it but I wasn't full-on hating my skin color. And then definitely through high school and college, I realized, to really appreciate my skin color. And I think that's also to the fact, sort of positive reinforcement from my mom and my sister being “love the skin you're in” and also being around a group of much more diverse group of friends throughout high school and college really also helps solidify that I wouldn't change my skin tone for anything else. I'm very happy. I actually do it when I get tanner because I think I look better. 

Have you ever done anything to change your skin color, done lighter makeup or foundation, or used any products?

I feel I really had more issues in elementary school and I didn't honestly really play around with makeup. I didn't really have a good way with trying to make myself lighter but I would be conscious of, “oh, maybe I shouldn't spend so much time outside in the sun.” So that was, I guess in elementary school. I would try to avoid playing in the sun, which doesn't really can't really happen because school. I was actually putting a lot of sunblock, sunscreen on because I was afraid that I was thinking that “oh if I put sunscreen on it's gonna prevent me from getting any darker than I was.” So I would just splatter a bunch of sunscreen on. But I think that’s all I really did. 

Are you the darkest, lightest, or in the middle within your family or anyone?

I’m definitely the darkest. Or am I? My dad's pretty dark too. So I think there might be a tie between him and me.

Given the entire Cambodian population from the darkest of Cambodians to the lightest of Cambodians, how would you say you fit in on that scale there?

I think I would definitely in the on the darker scale of Cambodia and sometimes because I think it also depends on where I am, because in Phnom Penh, I think there's more definitely, especially now, more recently, there's a lot more Chinese Cambodians. So I would definitely be on a bit darker scale in Phnom Penh, but then when we went to Ratanakiri and Mondulkiri, sort of the provinces. Yeah, that was my first time going there so it was really cool. I would definitely be, kind of very much the same as everyone, as everyone else I felt more at home I guess. 

Do you see people who look you in any of those forms of Cambodian media?

I think that was definitely when we would watch those to sort of learn different dances different robams/រ៉ូបាម (dances) for the classical dancing. I definitely did feel there was a disconnect because those girls are hella pale. So I thought that was always interesting that I was, “oh they're Khmer but they don't really look like me.” It also made me question myself a little bit because there's these classical dancers that are super pale and they're doing Khmer classical dancing so then they obviously should be Khmer, right? I remember feeling some type of way about that. Even when I go, I remember we were watching a live performance in Cambodia. I think if they were all dancing the robam apsara/រ៉ូបាមអប្សរា (apsara dance), and all the girls were very light skinned. I remember because they usually with the tops–I'm sure you've seen the pictures–they always match the tops to their skin tone and, it's always pretty light skinned like very beigy nude colors. So, and then we also took a picture with them, so even standing next to them, I also realize how pale there and how pale their makeup was as well. Seeing them even up close was something that kind of stuck in my mind that performers were typically lighter skin. Nowadays, I think there's a better mix of darker skinned people on media and dramas and whatnot, but I think, again, I was mentioning that one drama with the lighting. I'm sure the actors aren't that pale, but the lighting that they had on them just washed their skin color out completely. And I find it very annoying, because it was just really unnatural, kind of lighting or some sort of filter that they put the film through.

And then also it was again sort of the influence for my mom but she was always always a fan of Buppha Devi and she would always love, even now, she could play her random performances when she was dancing and Buppha Devi, she was definitely darker, right? So, during when she was younger right and she's a princess, so that maybe did make me feel good about myself. That my mom is, “oh, you're as dark as the Khmer princess.”

You’re going to Cambodia and the producers cast you in any form of Cambodia media that we that we described, what role would they cast you as?

I feel they might pass me as neak jun jiet/អ្នកជនជាតិ (Indigenous person), the very native people. I feel that they might actually cast me in that role. I'm definitely not as–I could get darker if I'm in the sun but I definitely feel they probably tried cast me in that type of role. And I guess what kind of lines I would say. I don't know. It might be like, I think they would cast me in maybe a sort of a period kind of piece. So it’ll be more back in I guess a very old ancient Khmer definitely. I would think I would be casting for that so maybe when the Khmer language was more–I'm not really sure how the language has changed over the years, but definitely maybe when it–I know originates from Sanskrit, so maybe speaking in a very old Cambodian or Khmer sort of dialect, I guess.

Why do you think that these elite spaces in Cambodia's media or places above, why do you think that they're significantly lighter? 

It does kind of bring the whole race and ethnicity, and for the most part, they think that–I don't know which one stems from which one but lighter skin is better, so that means Chinese people are better or Chinese people are better so that for lighter skin is better. But especially now with more really big businesses and conglomerates coming into supply and sort of, those are definitely Khmer owned sort of businesses, and then, obviously, it'd be employed with more Chinese people and they're, generally speaking, Chinese tend to be lighter skin. And because it already kind of sets that precedent of already lighter skinned people encompassing that space and I feel it does deter maybe the darker skinned Cambodians from going into those sort of places.

Describe how colorism affects your life.

Definitely again with within the Cambodian community, it does feel there's sometimes divide between the lighter skinned more sort of sraem/ស្រអែម (tan, connoting beauty) skinned Cambodians as well. And…yeah, I feel sometimes, I think it might be an Asian thing to be kind of passive aggressive so you never really say what's on my mind.

They wouldn't say things outright but again, I would get that sort of feeling from them when I say I'm Cambodian. Again, going back to what really bothered me was Cambodians who wouldn't recognize that I'm Cambodian when I feel my skin tone says I'm Cambodian, my facial features say I’m Cambodian, for the most part, and they don't seem to accept that. Or, they assume that I should be mixed.

And what's interesting is that even this sort of stereotype or the stigma I feel bleeds out to how other people view Cambodians because even then, they think Cambodians should be lighter skinned. And no, no, no, you're wrong. That's not true. Then even other people would be, “oh you're Cambodian.” They wouldn't say anything outright but they'd still be surprised. Again one of the comments I mentioned to you is “you must be some sort of Latino.” I've gotten Native American. I've gotten maybe mixed half Black. I've gotten all sorts of things besides Cambodian. 

So yeah, I think that's definitely how colorism affected me in that people won't recognize me as Cambodian because they expect Cambodians to look a certain type of way. And then even besides that, there's always that sort of stereotype that, “oh, being more lighter skin is just more beautiful,” I would say. And most cultures, or even with my experience here is, just being an Asian American as well. The way sometimes I definitely feel like even with my sister, she might be just a few shades lighter than me and sometimes I feel she gets treated differently because of that, or I get treated differently because I'm just a few shades darker.

Within the Cambodian community so things that we say are that stereotypes that float around within the Cambodian community about lighter versus darker?

Yeah, definitely when I go to Cambodia, I didn't get that sense that I am being kind of looked down, just because of my skin tone by the by Cambodians are they're in a sense, more Cambodian than I am because they live in Srok Khmer/ស្រុកខ្មែរ (Cambodia), they speak Khmer so fluently. Right. But then, at the same time, their ethnic background might be Chinese or some sort of other Eastern Asian. And yet they sort of feel because I have a certain skin tone, they're more Cambodian than I am. 

When it comes to, the ethnic people stereotypes. For the most part I haven't really came across that in my experience. Again, I more spend a lot of time with my mom when we traveled to Cambodia and she usually she's been maybe there's a reason why me and my sister are the way we are and are more comfortable with our skin because our mom is very anti-Chinese. She thinks she's that oh Cambodia is changing. Now, it's you look around, you don't seek Khmer people anymore which is kind of problematic in its own way but that’s another story. 

So she definitely is on the flip side and that she sees neak jun jiet/អ្នកជនជាតិ (Indigenous person) or neak Khmer men ten/អ្នកខ្មែរមែនទែន (very Khmer) as in like what Cambodians should be and that's a more positive connotation whereas she sees these lighter skinned Cambodians as taking over her country. Yeah because my sense my mom was, born and raised in Srok Khmer/ស្រុកខ្មែរ (Cambodia) before she came here and she definitely feels that serves stronger. This is her country and she feels as if it's being taken over by people that aren't Cambodian. And since we've fallen using these bigger businesses and Chinese businesses and whatnot, even, I know Kampong Saom is even known to be the new Chinatown, because it's a lot more Chinese people or have inhabited. And then even signs are Chinese rather than in Khmer. So then, they definitely establish their Chinatown fair, which does make me a little sad because I did really liked Kampong Saom before all that happened.

So from my perspective, it was definitely I would say it's a reverse that the sort of Chinese people or foreigners are kind of taking over Cambodia and then actual Cambodians are actually are leaving or, just don't really exist, or just kind of fading out and that makes her really sad. So that's kind of my experiences with that.

Yeah, kind of what I mentioned before about feeling as if I couldn't fit into the Khmer community, I guess, specifically the Cambodian American community. And maybe that's one of the reasons why I feel there was such a disconnect because of these sort of weird stereotypes and that I felt if I was in that environment, it would affect my thinking more negatively. So then I just kind of completely ostracize my own community because of that. And I would say it affected me more in a way that I just kind of avoided because I didn't interact with that community as much. I just avoided hearing those types of negative things. So then, I definitely aligned myself with other different types of friends from different backgrounds, different types of diverse ethnicities.

But then, even then sometimes I do feel a literal loss, especially in university where I didn't really know anyone Cambodian. But then, of course my friends are awesome from different backgrounds and whatnot. But definitely, I did feel a little bit lonely because I couldn't really relate to anyone else Cambodian. I think I was able to sort of avoid those labels, because, honestly, Boston's very White. So then people just didn't know what I was, so I think they couldn't because–which is I guess a good thing because they couldn't place what ethnicity I was, they just kind of, “oh, there's this Brown girl.” And I don't know what they assumed of me but because they couldn’t place what I was, they just–I think I was able to just kind of develop myself without being held back by those types of labels. Because I just kind of flew under the radar of not really addressing my Cambodian heritage with other people or being very open about it because it was very small in Boston.

What do you think contributes the most towards your attitude about your skin color?

I would definitely say just social media entertainment, because I think that's because I feel this is sort of weird to say but people I interact with directly I feel what they say doesn't affect me as much as what I see on TV and what I see on media. Honestly it doesn't make a lot of sense. Even I kind of still struggle with that but then sometimes again when everyone says the certain type of person is beautiful, or smart, or whatever and then you see it in the media and they're famous. So they're known by a lot of people and then not being able to see someone that looks like you represented does make me feel definitely underrepresented. Probably why I stayed away or not stayed away, but definitely I haven't watched as much American television as I did when I was much younger. That's why I got into Kpop because I was like Asians. They're Korean but they're close enough, right? Any type of, besides seeing other White people or ‘cause even Black people aren't that well represented either.

I would think I was just kind of sick of seeing White people or lighter skinned people on TV and then so that's why I went and tried to find media elsewhere. That's why I listen to Kpop and watch Korean dramas but then it still has that stereotype of lighter skin. So I also listened to J-rock and then I just straight out went to anime because it's just well screw real people. 

So I think the reason why I consumed the media that I do is because of not seeing myself represented and sort of maybe trying to search for someone like me and in those sort of representations.

Based on your experience in Cambodia, what kind of jobs do you see people who look you in Cambodia working, largely?

They're usually the people that are in service. I would say service jobs like waiters and waitresses or, I don't know how to describe them, the sort of people that opened your door. I think you know what I'm talking about right. Yeah the people that are kind of outside that open the doors for you. Or serve those. Yeah, definitely services types jobs.

Whereas, I did notice if I had to get, this is not always the case because I think it's, it's all mixed. If I go, “oh, we need to get phone service or we need to get internet.” I would say it's half and half. Given my experience half and half, it'd be a darker skinned person as dark as me or even darker or light, but other half of the time it would be someone that's “more Chinese looking,” so I guess more the phone services, internet services, the more tech-y kind of people, I think, would be a half and half, from my experiences. I know, for the most part, this is more not really my experiences but with at least what I see on the news and whatnot. The people that own these big businesses are either foreigners, for example the resorts and plazas, some of them are even just French owned, right? And then they have the sort of Khmer concierge people and whatnot and cleaning ladies are definitely darker usually typically darker skin. But then, the people that actually own the businesses would definitely be lighter skinned, and maybe not even Cambodian.

So, even though I'm in those resorts or in those sort of hotels and restaurants, even though I do see Cambodian people mix of different colors, I just know for a fact from news and from what I know of these establishments that they’re Chinese owned or they're foreign. But there are still again, it's not in every instance because there is one of my favorite restaurants, I don't remember the name right now, but it's definitely It was very Khmer, it's Khmer owned. And then the food is very authentically Khmer like Khmer sot men ten/ខ្មែរសុទ្ធមែនទែន (very pure Khmer) then my mother would always just comment it brings back childhood memories because she's very much complimenting that this is definitely what Khmer food should taste. These are the spices. This is the way they use spices because again when it comes to different cultures coming in, it's always kind of a fusion so even if sometimes eating Cambodian food in Cambodia doesn't–sometimes it doesn't even taste Cambodian food, which always surprised me.

What kind of jobs do you see Cambodians who are much darker than you working largely in Cambodia?

I would definitely say they probably work more labor jobs, or jobs that require them to be in the sun a lot. So, labor jobs. So, definitely gardeners, or construction workers, or the neak jee moto/អ្នកជុះម៉ូតូ (motorbike drivers) and little tuk-tuks. And, yeah, I would think so much darker again, this is more specifically for Phnom Penh. Because again, I think Ratanakiri and Mondulkiri, definitely everyone was darker so that was more of the norm. But in Phnom Penh I could definitely see that, sort of, divide more clearly. And that people that were much darker than me were doing more hard, hard labor types of jobs.

What about Cambodians who are much lighter than you? 

I'm thinking of the certain malls [like] AEON Mall and just specifically thinking about all those kind of separate little clothing boutiques, the girls that would be the sort of sales persons were typically lighter, lighter skin than I am. So they have those types of I would say customer service jobs but more and more in the sort of upper because they're kind of these expensive boutique stores nobody goes in because they're too damn expensive. Actually for the hotels or resorts or spas or whatever, for the most part the concierge person. It's not always the case, but I did notice that sometimes they do tend to be just lighter skin than I am. So, I think, I don't know, maybe an internalized choice that they put the lighter skinned people in more and more facing fronting kind of positions where they are the first person you see when you enter an establishment and who you talk to. And then, let's say the people that carry the luggage or the people that do the sort of housekeeping are as dark as me or darker.

How do you think your life would have been different if you were a lighter much lighter? How about other features, a smaller, pointier nose?

Yeah, that's a good question because as much as I want to say I'm very much proud of my skin and I'm comfortable with where I am, I still always think of the what ifs. Maybe more of my confidence as a woman and maybe even throughout just my career of what I want to do because sometimes the way people treat you just because of your skin tone does affect how you perceive yourself no matter how much you try to be positive, right? So maybe I could have been more confident to maybe pursue something now even now I'm still, I am going to be pursuing a Master's potentially but maybe I could have been more confident about that before and been more assured about what I wanted to do with my life. Just because just general confidence in myself as a person. And, definitely there is a part of me that wished I was more desirable to Asian men because I was into Kpop and whatnot. I definitely do tend to just generally like Asian guys more just ‘cause more culture wise just my preference and whatnot. And I feel that's because of my skin tone, I'm definitely not as desirable as I can be as a darker skinned Cambodian woman and I feel I would maybe be potentially more desirable if I was lighter skin, and I had certain features, then Asian guys would like me more. 

How do you think your relationship with other Cambodians in general would be different? 

I have a feeling that maybe I wouldn't have been so disconnected with my community.

I think it's because, generally my experiences, again you remember the negatives more than positives, and I'm sure I had definitely positive experiences. But because in my mind those negatives outweigh those positives, I definitely just kind of exclude myself from the community because of these certain stigmas. And I feel again it'll be more of a confidence in myself and then the way people do treat me. I think I would have been more comfortable being more, I guess more active in the Cambodian community if I was lighter skinned.

How do you think your skin color affects marriage for you?

Cambodian people in general, the whole stigma, because I think the whole colorism definitely affects women much at a much greater way than it does men because beauty standards always disproportionately affect women more often than men. And that same for colorism so then, sort of what I kind of touched upon before being more desirable meant being a lighter skinned woman. So, I feel marriage is so far off my mind right now. But thinking about it I think it would. Yeah, being, definitely I do definitely feel I'm not as desirable because of my skin tone for certain men.

I think there was a time where I wished that my spouse could be lighter skinned so that way, my kids could be lighter skinned just so that they don't have to face the sort of things that I had to.

But then at the same time, I worried lighter skin, even though it was Cambodian lighter skin, or Eastern Asian lighter skin, or even white lighter skinned, if they see my children. But the thing I worry about is sort of with my mom as to if my child were out and about, would they think we're mother and child? And then, even if my children have the same facial features, the first thing people see is skin color. So if they're much lighter than I am, would they think, “oh, who's this woman with them?” So I think I would want a spouse that's around my skin tone so that way, I wouldn't get that same kind of experiences that I had with my mom with my kids.

I definitely feel that the sort of thing [of dating a Cambodian] again because I think my mom is very much instilled how she thinks Khmer people are no longer a thing or dying out or Cambodia is not the same as the way it was before. She's never pressured me to do that for the most part, she's always kind of been the opposite being, “you don't need to date anyone or see someone until you're ready, and it doesn't really matter who.” But it is always kinda in the back of my mind that, “oh, if I were to marry someone that isn't Cambodian, then I could say you're gonna be half and that's fine.” But then it's that even with the friends that I know that are half half–I know I have a friend that's half Japanese and half White and then how sometimes she had to struggle with her identities from both sides. Even though it could be a positive, she thinks she can get the best out of both worlds. At the same time, sometimes she feels she doesn't feel she quite can fit in with either which sucks. It shouldn't be that way but it really is. And the thing is she's also more White passing so then sometimes she doesn't feel as in tune with her Japanese side. So then I think what if that were the case for my kids that they would completely disregard their Cambodian roots if I were to marry someone that's not Cambodian or how would I try to relay that to my kids if my significant other wasn't Cambodian.

How do you think your life would have been different if both of your parents were very very light Cambodians? 

Yeah, that's a good question. So given the context of throughout my whole family lineage that they were lighter skinned Cambodians, I would think if I came from a family of much lighter skinned Cambodians, I feel we might have even immigrated to the Americas much earlier. And I feel because of that, maybe, I probably would lose some of my sort of my roots because of that. It would have been really hard to struggle being an Asian American. Not like first generation now, maybe second or third generation. And maybe I wouldn’t do things, maybe I would be even more further removed from my Cambodian heritage and maybe I might assimilate more to the standards of America now. And maybe I wouldn’t be into Kpop or anime as I am now because I would still be watching more American shows because I'd be fine with that.

Or maybe we'd be, because we were here longer typically speaking, depending on how long your family has been in America, you tend to just accumulate wealth within the family. So maybe we would have lived somewhere completely different. And maybe “suburbia” or something. As I know with a lot of few of my Asian friends that are more second not first generation like me but second generation that they came from more suburban areas. And I probably see myself in the same shoes as them, and also probably not even being able to speak Khmer because of that. Because I feel at least I can understand, pretty basic conversational Khmer but not really speak it or read it or write it all that well. Probably not even be able to understand what my grandparents are saying, or if I go to Cambodia maybe being feeling I can't communicate with people from my homeland because I don't understand this language. And I probably would be brought up somewhere that didn’t have that Khmer class. And maybe the Khmer food that I eat might be more fusion, and I wouldn't really know what authentic Khmer food is supposed to be like.

So I guess yeah, I can see that being sort of a chain of just changing things that can. I don't know, might actually it's kind of scary to think about what might change me because how I see myself today. And maybe because I'm very much pro love the skin you’re in. And maybe because I'm lighter skinned, I might look down on people that are darker than me and that doesn't just affect maybe Cambodians that are darker than me but even just Black Americans or Latino Americans and I might look down on them because of that. And I might, because I'm lighter skinned, I might align myself with more White peers rather than the diverse group of friends that I currently have. Yeah, it was kind of scary to think about.

It’s really crazy to think about.  That's something as something that shouldn't, its skin deep right, it shouldn't shouldn't affect who you are as a person. But now I'm thinking about it, I could be if I was lighter skin and if my family was lighter skinned, I could be a completely a completely different person.

If you could change anything in your life, what would you change or what would you do?

Okay change anything. Just generally, just being a more decisive person. I feel I picked the major and I just because, even though I did have an interest in it, I wasn't really passionate about anything. Or even if I was “passionate” about it, I feel it was very short lived passion. So there's more of just the self interest and then I had kind of wanes.

I wish maybe I could have been more decisive and trying out certain things and maybe, yeah, and trying out more things and being able to at least be “I don't like this, I don't like this, I don't like this” and maybe narrowing it down that way. Maybe it would have been better for me to kind of meander. Kind of where I am right now being a bit meandering about what I want to do with my life, and what direction I want to take. So yeah, just maybe decisiveness earlier on. 

It's hard. To feel you're kind of drifting, especially when I talk to my friends and then when I talk to my sister, they always have some sort of goal in mind. I have, I'm sure you guys have friends that definitely wants to go to med school, or you have friends that have done business school or again with my sister, she's going to law school and then they have very definite goals, and then I just I see myself and I'm, Oh, yeah, what do I want to do.

Sometimes it's great to kind of experience anything but I think there was a point, I felt kind of frustrated. I feel nothing I was doing was kind of really clicking right. And then it's just I feel I'm trying to do all these things so why is it, I don't know that sort of spark, am I supposed to feel answers spark for something, right? So I just kind of live with the fact that, maybe I won't find that spark but doesn't mean I can try to continue just trying to find it. And, for now I've kind of set that as my goal to find something to work towards.

Is there just anything you'd to say to the general audience reading it because it is going to be on a public website, or just to the general Cambodian community?

Something that I wish I knew when I was younger was your skin tone or your skin color shouldn’t affect your confidence, or how you feel about yourself. Or, literally, you shouldn’t let that deter you from doing the things that you want to do.

Because skin color’s only skin deep and, that's only one part of you as a person. I wish I knew that and I understood that a lot earlier. Even now I feel I'm still sort of grappling with that being comfortable with where I am even after all these years, right. So, even hearing that earlier, I think, would have been better being kinder to your younger self.