Lyda, 38

Lowell, Massachusetts | May 16th, 2021

Date of interview: August 5th, 2020

I was born in 1981, and I came here in 1983. Both my siblings, they were born here. I'm the only one that was born in the refugee camp [in Thailand]. So, it was kind of a challenge for me to get used to the cultures here, the language and stuff. Even school was difficult. I think you kind of face some sort of discrimination when you're here. Even as a child, I remember having no friends or just kind of being on my own, and all I have is parents but they don't speak any English, and I can't help them because it was kind of hard. It was hard. It was a struggle for my parents but eventually they worked hard and gave me the life that they wanted to give me money-wise. They [always say] “go to school,” and they’ll just keep working. So I got asked a question where I worked, in the healthcare field, and I said, “Hey, I need to take a day off because I gotta take my parents to the doctors and I have to interpret for them.” And one of the comments that was made was, “They've been here for over 20 years. Why haven't they learned the language?” And I said it was because they were giving me the opportunity here, so that I can go to school. So now, I'm doing my part and interpreting and taking care of them. I felt bad that someone had to think of it that way. I don't care how long you've been at a certain place; you don't know someone enough to say “for 20 years you didn't learn the language?” You had the privilege, but I didn’t. And my parents gave me that privilege to go to school for my success. So, I've always told people it doesn't matter if they can speak the language, you still need interpretation. That's just a root problem. They themselves probably didn't think there was really a need to take time off––like why? For 20 years they didn't take the opportunity to learn English? You're in America, you should be speaking English.

What did your parents do for work?

They worked in manufacturing pretty much all their life. I think most Cambodians work in the manufacturing field when they come.

Do you know what your parents did before they came?

I think my dad was in some sort of military type of thing, but I don't know what he did exactly. They don't really discuss all that with me and I don't really bring it up because I don't know how traumatic it is for them. So it comes up when it comes up, and then it just kind of dampens the mood so then you just have to change the subject. But my mom, I think my mom sold stuff, food or something like that. But my dad was part of the government type stuff. I think that's what it is. I remember telling me that even before we came here––we were sent to the Philippines for a little bit and then we came here––they had to learn trades. My dad learned carpentry. He didn't learn the English language, just [enough] to get by. He can read and understand but he doesn't have the confidence to speak it. But my mom, now she can speak it but she can't read or write it.

Which province or area were your parents from in Cambodia?

My mom is from Battambang, but I’m not sure about my dad.

[When applying to immigrate to the U.S. from the refugee camps, our options were] I think it was either Lowell, Massachusetts, or Long Beach, California. Those are the two most populated Cambodian [cities.] lf I say I'm Cambodian, they automatically assume I’m from Lowell.

[...]

I don't think [gangs] came from a bad place in the beginning. Like I said, when I came over, there were barely any Cambodians. There [technically] was, like in a class you'll probably have maybe three plus me. We get bullied, and I think we got sick of that and then we were like, “you know what, we're a strong culture too and you're not going to pick on us.” And I think that's how it happened...you have to protect yourself and sometimes it's in numbers. And that's what we have, in numbers. Don't forget, we're new here, our parents are busy working, who's going to help save us? Nobody.

Even for a while I think it was hard because the teachers didn't even understand how our culture [works], how we operate. I remember failing the first grade because I can't understand the language, and you're trying to teach me something, but you're getting frustrated with me because I don't understand. I remember I didn't even know how to do addition and subtraction, simple stuff, bare minimum, I didn't, and they didn't care to teach me, so every time they gave me a paper I just wrote down any number. And all I get on my paper––and I just remember to this day––is p-o-o-r, poor, because I had nothing right on that paper. But, did they ever consult my parents? None of that happened. It was just that they wrote something on your paper and they expect the parents to know that I did poorly, and then you just don't pass me. So it was my father that taught me addition. And that's how I know how to add and subtract, because he took chopsticks and was like, “I have five. Take away three. How many I have left?” That's how I learned my math. Then, after I failed the first grade, I think they found that we weren't integrating with the class. That’s the first time that they had the ESL class, so that's when they implemented all of that. I went to ESL class and I scored right out of it from the second grade on. I wanted to show them that even though I'm not from here, I'm more than capable of surpassing every single one of you that were born here, and I did. 

[…]

[About gangs] It is out of survival, and that's why I can't be mad, like yeah gangs are bad, but I mean they weren't formed to be… it was never formed and I think in a way that was destructive like that. So, when you talk about Lowell and then you see like‒I don't know if you read The Lowell Sun sometimes‒sometimes, something happens and then the whole Cambodian community gets blamed for it or you'll see these nasty comments like, “oh yeah, you guys brought the cockroaches, you guys brought this, you guys brought gangs.” I'm like, “no, first off, gangs was KKK, so stop talking to me about Cambodians bringing gangs. Stop it.”

When you first came here, did you notice that there was already a Cambodian community or was it forming when you came?

I think when I came it was just forming in all honesty because I didn't have anybody like that. Now when you see in class, especially around this area, you're gonna see like half of the class is probably Cambodian or Asian, so we're kind of the majority not the minority. But when I came, it was like I said only two to three in a class‒actually in the whole building maybe like two or three scattered ‘cause in my ESL classes, there’s probably only like six people at most. But now they have so much resources and stuff like that, interpretation, you know.

At what age did you notice that a bigger Cambodian community was forming? 

I wanna say... I mean I think there were parties, Cambodian parties, but that's only to one. I don't know what age I was...I was probably at least twelve or something. And at that time, it was like Cambodian movie stars, they come and sing. 

What's your ethnicity if you could provide a breakdown between your mom and your dad?

I don't know. I asked my parents if I had‒ ‘cause our last name [has Chinese origin], we must have Chinese and then my dad's like, “no.” “So, we're like, fully Khmer?” and that's the answer I got. So, I know when I was growing up, I had curly hair. That's my natural curls and I'm just like, “I don't get it. Everybody else has straight hair, so why do I have curly?” I wonder if we’re mixed like with Black people or something like, why do I have curly hair? But then, so somebody told me originally, the original Khmer people did have darker skin and then curly hair. So my dad is dark, my brother has curly hair too, my sister got waves. I mean I was jealous of her hair ‘cause it’s so hard to deal with curly hair; you didn't know how to fix it up. So, I think we're like fully Khmer. My daughter, she's half Jamaican, so that’s why her hair is like that.

How do you feel about your facial features? So, this can be your eyes, your nose, your mouth, or your face shape.

I always get the chinky eye part of it, I don't know. I like it, but that's the feature where people like, “oh, you're chinky but Cambodian,” but I'm like, “I don't know what that means but…” My eyes are small. Actually, I like my features; I don't really have a problem with it. I mean, at least I never really thought about it like that. I like my features. I never‒I don't think I've ever said, “Oh, why do I look like this,” or whatever. I think the Asian culture is beautiful, we have beautiful people, so. That's just me. Maybe I'm just so pro-Khmer.

How do you feel about your hair?

My hair, I had a problem with it when I was growing up because it's like, my parents didn't‒like I said, I was first born, my mom didn’t know how to fix up my hair, so all these pictures that I took when I was younger, all it was like ponytail with mad frizz. You would never want to see my pictures; I would never show it. It was awful. I felt awful, I didn't know how to fix it, I didn't know the products.

What kind of emotions did you get when you thought of your hair?

I always put it up. That was the way I wore my hair. I would throw it in a bun, put it up, and maybe leave two strands and that's it. That's how I dealt with my hair ‘cause I didn’t know how to deal with curly hair. I was so jealous of people with straight hair. I think at one point, I was ironing it with the clothes iron ‘cause I wanted it straight. I always wanted it straight. It's not until a few years recently where I started to embrace my curls and just, wow, I had the most perfect hair but I just wasn't loving it enough, so I would always throw‒I feel like all my pictures was all in a bun. That's all. That's how I wore it because I didn’t know how to deal with it, I didn’t know how to fix it, I didn't know like gel wise, I almost felt like I wasn't even Asian because of my hair. Most of the people in my school like the Asians, they all had straight hair. I was probably the only one with curly hair.

Does your mom have curly hair, or your dad?

My mom had wavy hair; it wasn't curly like mine, but she actually, she has straight hair. She permed it. My father had curly hair. I get it from my dad ‘cause my brother got curly hair, me and my brother. My sister got wavy hair, she's like more of my mom. But yeah, I used to hate it, I'm like, “damn, am I even Asian, like what? Why do I have curly hair?” I grew up thinking if you're Asian, your hair should be straight. And I was like, “I can't deal with this curly hair, I'm just gonna throw it in a bun.” So, I did that for like half of my life. I think all my pictures way back then, I either like clothes iron straightened it, but I would never let it down curly. I just started embracing it now, actually.

Actually I wish I had known better, but I don’t know. I really hated it. Yeah, that my hair was…I hated it, but now I love it because I know that nobody has that natural curl type of thing, and it's rare to see an Asian person with curly hair that is curly like mine. So, sometimes I get mistaken for other cultures like, “Are you Spanish?” “Nope.”

 I guess growing up, I think that the Asian culture is‒not even just specifically Cambodian‒but the lighter, the better. So, you ever go play outside and your parents are like, tich khmao/តិចខ្មៅ (soon you’ll be black/dark)? And I’m like, “I’m already dark.”

But yeah, I mean the lighter, the better, so you would cover up or, you know what I mean. I'm like, “really?” That's why now when I would go to the beach, I don't tan ‘cause I was just like, “I don't want to get too dark ‘cause I'm already dark and tan. I don't need to tan,” but I think the mentality of keeping away from the sun has ruined my life, and I go to the beaches like, “can you give me a tent? I don't want to sit in the sun too long.” Find a shade.

Can you describe your skin tone?

I would say I’m brown like caramel brown. I mean, I’m not light.

How do others describe your skin color but specifically in the Cambodian community? 

Oh, I know they call me something dark.

Is it khmao/ខ្មៅ (black) or sraem/ស្រអែម (tan)?

Yeah, yeah. I would get that a lot, but…

Which one?

Khmao/ខ្មៅ. Me khmao/មីខ្មៅ!

Where do you think your skin, hair, and features come from? 

So, I would say… oh, my God, all my features are my dad ‘cause my dad is very dark, like very dark. My dad’s dark so, and his hair is wavy; I think I got all the features from him. I think face‒yeah, I think I'm more like my dad.

So, does your mom look a lot different from you? What does she look like?

I mean she looks like me, but you could tell that my strong features are my father's because my mom has lighter skin than me, and I don’t know, she just had‒she looks like‒my sister, I feel like my sister looks like my mom and I look like my dad. So, here's my dad. See how he’s like dark dark, and then this is my mom. She's lighter but you know she's been in the sun, she gardens now. So, see how my dad, like I tell him, “I know we ain't Chinese ‘cause you are mad dark.” 

How do you feel about your skin color? You can talk about if it changed over time.

I think it did change over time. At first when I got here, I felt different. Because of my skin color, I'm getting a lot of flak. Just overall too, even in the Asian community, is just that they're more like light skinned and they want to be light skinned, so it was like you don't want to play outside too long, you’re gonna get dark. So, I've always thought that because it was just in my head so much that we’re supposed to be lighter skin or like to have Chinese background was the way to go. That was it, that was your cue like you know when people talk and they're like, “yeah, yeah, we have Chinese in our‒” and I’m just like, “me too.” I know, I did. I didn't care, like I wanted some of that light skin-ness, you know? “Me too. My family have some Chinese in me.” But, I clearly knew because my father had told me there wasn’t no Chinese heritage. “Whatever, dad. We must; look at our name.” He was like, “no.” “Okay, whatever.”

But now, I actually embrace my skin color and who I am. I think, also, just because I always was like, “oh, I love the Asian culture so much,” and I used to be like very prejudiced against darker skin too. Like, “I would never get with a Black guy, blah blah” and guess what? I actually fell in love with one and here comes [my daughter]. 

So, I think you grow up doing things where you're fed the information and then you just kind of like, “but that's not true. They all don’t look alike.” That's not true, like I fell in love with another culture. I didn't see myself being able to because I was just so‒my parents were like, obviously they want you to marry a Khmer guy, and that's not what I brought home. But lucky for me, they're not going to interfere with what I love or like. And, I think it takes a lot.

But yeah, and I think I wasn't sure how [my mom] would take it [that] I'm with someone. But, me and him‒I had relationships in the Asian culture which never last, and they have the image that Black people are no good, and I don't know where they get that image from. I don't know if it was because they moved here and that was the White mentality. 

Yeah, that's how White people portray it, so then we as Asians, of course we want to fit into where whoever is better ‘cause they look down as dark skin is, obviously, less or have that‒I don't want to say value, but that's how it's perceived. So, of course my parents can be like, “White people’s all that,” so if they say Black people's bad, Black people's bad. So, I grew up only wanting to be with my culture or so if I got with a White guy, they'll probably have no issue with it. They’ll be like, “oh, good for you,” but if I bring home a Black guy, it was like, “really, you couldn't find anybody else?” I mean they saw that he's a good guy, I had a daughter, we’ve been together for like 19 years, but we just ended the relationship, but he was a good father. He did everything‒it was nothing like what people said. People are bad in every culture, it's not the skin color that matters and I remember when my daughter was growing up, and I will say, “your dad's Black,” and she's like, “no, he's not black he’s brown. Mom, he's brown,” ‘cause when you grow up, you don't know that type of stuff, so when she said that, I thought that was so cute. I was like, “you’re right; he's like my skin color, a little bit darker.”

Yeah, so for me it was rough trying to understand where, what your identity is, like am I‒and of course, you always think that you're just prettier if you're lighter. Isn't that why they buy all these makeup to make them lighter? Even my parents‒even with my mom, like if you ever got married way back in a day, it don't matter how dark you are, they will put that makeup on you. You look like you’re so white, they never match skin, they just put white makeup on you ‘cause that's just‒they say, “sei kamera/សុីកាមេរ៉ា (show up on camera)” but seriously you just want me to be white. They did it to me too! I had a wedding. I saw old pictures and I was like, “oh, my gosh, I’m so white!”

I think they just grew up with the mentality that if you're lighter, you're just prettier. 

[...]

It took me a while to learn how to fix [my daughter’s] hair. I was like, “I am not‒I'm not going to put my daughter through what I went through. We are just going to fix you up, girl.” I mean, at one point I even did not like that type of hair and I would just straighten it for her and stuff like that because people look at you different; I feel like people look at you different. If she has this type of hair, it's not well perceived. But if I straightened it at home, “oh, [your daughter] has such pretty hair.” That’s not her‒I straightened it. But now, she's really kind of trying to up her curl and all that stuff.

Concentrating on the Cambodian community and maybe other Asians too, did they make you aware that you were darker than other Asians?

Yeah, I think when you're hanging out with friends, they're like, “oh she's khmao jieng ke/ខ្មៅជាងគេ (the darkest/blackest),” or like, “oh she's the darkest one.” I mean I catch myself saying that when somebody is darker than me, I'm like, “oh yeah, she's darker than me,” or you know, you use skin color to describe someone. But, I was always taught lighter is just more beautiful. 

Have you used them before?

Not like that,  I have looked at it but it was too expensive for me. So, I can't afford it but at one point, I was looking into Shiseido; they have a whitening type of thing or whatever, and I was like, “I don't know, if I whiten my face but my body’s still the same...” so I never got it. But, I have thought of kind of lightening up, “I don't know, would I look better?” But then I started to embrace this because everybody else wants to tan. I'm already tan, so I don't need to tan, so. I think being with [my daughter’s] father just kind of made me love me, no need to light, why do you want to be light? He always asked me that, “Why do Asian people want to be light so bad? What is wrong with being dark? What is wrong with being Black?” I have no answers for him. I say, “I don’t know! They just like to be light skinned. It's cool when you're like Chinese. If you're like a major Asian group and you're part of it, it feels good.”

I'm Cambodian, not many people know of Cambodian. If you're outside of here, if you go into anywhere else, the Chinese, Japanese, Korean like what's Cambodian? They'll know Thai or Filipino, but they’ll never guess Cambodian.

Did you ever do anything to lighten your skin or use lighter makeup?

Not intentionally. I always try to go get matched at Mac, and depending on who does it, I'm like, “no, this is not me.” They either go way too light or way too dark. So that's why when I go, I have to check out the person. The person has to be a minority to match me because I'm telling you, White people for some reason think you're way darker than what you are, and I'm walking around the mall and my friends, oh my God, they were laughing their asses off. “You legit look like you've been to Florida and baked the whole time.” I'm like, “Do I look that dark?” Oh my God, the foundation was way darker than what my skin tone was. So I was like, “okay, I'm not getting matched by her again.”

I don't know, I always used to get matched darker than I am, never lighter. Oh, lighter by if I'm doing something in the Cambodian community; they be like, tot roob te mi oun/ថតរូបទេមីអូន​​ (do you want a photo my dear)? Oh my God, it's so white. I was like, “you're not gonna match my skin?” They just use the same powder with everybody. Not everybody is this color, lady.

But they said you cannot match your skin color because it doesn't sei kamera/សុីកាមេរ៉ា (show up on camera), you have to go light, like light light so that when you take photos, it looks beautiful‒when you're light skinned.

In comparison to all of Cambodia, where would you fit in skin tone wise?

I say I would be in the middle. I don't think I'm like the darkest. I know there’s darker like my father, he’s like dark dark. My mom helped lighten us up. But, yeah I think there's darker but obviously from us shielding from the sun, we do a lot of work at home and whatever, but you learn that in school.

Think about all these forms of Cambodian media. Would you say that you feel represented? Do you see people who look like you in there?

Now that you say it, I don't think I've seen anybody dark skin in there. Now that I think about it, everybody's makeup is very light and nobody dark skin in there. I've never paid attention to that and you're right, they don't look like me. They don't represent me enough. I do see, however, in the real news, what it represents. Then I see like real Khmer people‒not that they're not real, but what the media portrays is different.

How does that make you feel?

Honestly, I don't feel any different ‘cause I'm used to seeing it already. I don't know how I perceive it now. But, I just noticed it now that you asked that question like, “wait a minute, is anybody dark skin on this? No.” Not even male, not even a male actor or anybody male for that matter.

What about their features? Are their features similar to yours, even though they're light skin?

I think they're a lot more Chinese [looking] than they are Cambodian because when I look at them, I'm just like, “they don't look nothing like me.”

You don't even think they put you in a movie? Like what kind of movie role would you have?

Not the main role. Maybe a servant, depends on what kind of movie that would be though.

Or like maybe like the girl, the bad girl.

Yeah, they say neak bomrar/អ្នកបំរើ (servant) or servant.

Or like that character that nobody likes.

Why is it or why do you think that these types of spaces, these elite spaces or even places of wealth in Cambodia, why is it that they're always significantly lighter in skin color?

I think lighter skin color must get you more benefits of being light skin. I mean, in all honesty, even if you were started out as dark, I think once you make it up, wherever you needed to go, you would be lighter skinned because it’s well more perceived. Because now thinking about it, some of the singers that I've listened to, I mean starting back, they were not light. So, how come all of a sudden, they look mad light? I think the higher you get, I think the lighter they want you to be. I mean even over here, my parents, they always have that word like every time they talk, “saw saat/សស្អាត​ (white is pretty).” And then the most that you get for pretty as khmao/ខ្មៅ​ (black) is like khmao sraem/ខ្មៅស្រអែម (tan). That's it. You're not like khmao saat/ខ្មៅស្អាត (pretty dark), it’s like “eh, you’re right there.” 

Describe how colorism affects your life.

I struggled a little bit when I came here so obviously I was never‒not that I wasn't happy being my own skin, life would be easier for me if I was lighter or close to looking like an American person‒not American because you could be so broad in America. Yeah, but the lighter, the better. I think that if I was lighter, I won't be the target. I think my life would be a lot easier if I was lighter. But because I'm darker it's just a little tough because you're not accepted. You're not accepted here, you're not accepted there. Where do you go with just yourself?

So, it took a while for me to kind of embrace it. I think after my teenage years, maybe even after my 20s, maybe in my 30s, I started to accept who I really am, my hair, my features and stuff like that. And then it was hard for me because I felt like the Asian community, they like slim, light skinned woman, slim like small, and I don't think I ever was small. I was always thick, so it was just kind of not well perceived and stuff, so I always wanted to be slim. I wish I was slim like, “oh my God, she had a slim nice body, straight hair, light skin,” those were like, of course, that pretty picture was painted to be that way. Like you said, the media portrays it that way too, so.

So I did have an issue, I think, but not like I have an issue‒I don't know, I just think my life would be just easier if I was lighter, so much easier. And I will probably feel more prettier like oh, I'll get some more guys I guess.

Do you have any specific stories or memories that pop up when you hear colorism in the Cambodian community?

I think for me it was just in general trying to be a part of something even if it meant lighter  feature-wise like, “I wish I didn't have this [curly] hair.” I mean, having my hair was awful sometimes ‘cause people would do the straw thing and then just put stuff in your hair because it will just stay, whereas if you have straight hair, you can’t do nothing to it. So, I always think my hair bothered me the most.

What do you think contributes the most to your attitude about your skin color now? 

Life in general because when I first came here, I wanted to be different. And now, I'm at a point where I don't want to be‒I'm me. I'm gonna accept me for me, and with all this Black Lives Matter or just how other cultures‒I guess I never really opened my eyes to the racism and stuff like that until I got with my Jamaican ex-boyfriend. But, he just kind of opened my eyes like you guys. He asked me, he's like, “why do you Asian people want to be lighter?” because even they know about it, Asian people want to be lighter for what? You can't be comfortable being your own culture, but you want to be Chinese? And then, you pick up all these lighter people, but you put yourself down. And I think being with him taught me I should love myself, I should be happy that I’m darker, embrace it because there's so many benefits to being darker like you don't really get sunburned as fast. He's right and I think it kind of took him to kind of put in my face like why, and then I don't have any excuse. He's like, “I don't understand why you want to be lighter. You should be comfortable in your own skin,” and stuff like that.

What kind of jobs do you see people who look like you in Cambodia? 

Marketplace, the regular people. I don't see us owning businesses, it’d be little carts here and there, just nothing major. That's how I feel. That's what I actually see on camera when my parents watch stuff, they're like the taxi, those tuk-tuks, or the women that sell stuff on the street. And then when you go into a more better restaurant or something, you see the owners are more posh looking, lighter. But my people, dark, in the sun, farming. The rural, I feel like the farm community is like darker skin, but if you own a business or up there, like even some of the‒like I said, I follow those movie stars and then you'll see them getting interviewed and I'm like, “he's mad light,” and then all the rest of the people that are surrounding him are dark, which are pushing carts. I felt like they do a lot more manual work, rather than just office work. 

What kind of jobs do you see for people who are much lighter?

Like CEOs, people who are always constantly on camera. Well, I was just looking at something and our prime minister's wife, she’s mad white.

What about people who are much darker than you? What kind of jobs do you see them working?

I would say farmers. People who are not even in the city, I'm talking about farming. Like in those [charity] videos where they need help and they're very poor, yeah those. I [can even be colorist sometimes] like,  “wow.” When you said dark girls I was like, “woah, that's like mad dark.” So, definitely my image [of them is that] they’re poor because I never see them in a top level, at least not that I see in movies or in the news.

Imagine you're much lighter, you had the ideal Asian features, straight hair, thin nose, pale skin. How would your life be different? 

Much lighter? Oh my God. A lot of marriage, I'm like marriage potential. So many guys will probably wanna marry me off the market.

How would your relationship with your family be like?

Oh my God, they would love me, are you kidding me? They're like, “oh, she's so pretty. My daughter is this, she's married to this, and she's wicked pretty, and she’s got so many suitors.” I'm sure I'll be the shit.

What role does your skin color play in marriage? Have you ever thought that your spouse should be someone who’s lighter than you, darker than you?

I always thought I would never get anybody that's lighter than me to like me. I think that they'd either be my color or darker. I don't see a Chinese man trying to marry me or anybody that's light skin looking to marry me, so I don't think in their eyes I'm pretty to them. I think they want somebody lighter skin to match with them. Actually, I'd [hardly] see somebody light skin [marry someone] darker.

What about what you want? Did you or have you wanted someone who was lighter than you or darker than you?

I think when I was younger, there was somebody that was darker, way darker than me, that was interested in me and automatically I disqualified him because he’s too dark, like too dark. But now, no; but then, yes. 

Did you think that your parents wanted you to marry a Cambodian person?

Oh, definitely. Yeah, Cambodian, White, Chinese, anything but Black.

Have you ever wanted your children to be lighter or darker than you?

I almost‒in my head I was like, “oh God, oh it’s my mom,” like do you get the same amount of love, not that skin color matters to anything but sometimes it's in my head like, “oh if she's dark, will my parents love her just as much as the grandson.” Because my son was born fully Cambodian, so would my daughter be perceived any different because she's from a Black man?

I mean you still hear it today today as like‒what is that Cambodian saying. I was like, “oh my God, he’s so cute,” and they’re like, “ah chao Chen saat/ចៅចិនស្អាត (Chinese grandchildren are pretty), Chen saat/ចិនស្អាត (Chinese is pretty).” I guess if you have Chinese, you’re definitely looking good.

If both of your parents were very light Cambodians, how would your life be different? What kind of education would you have, where would you be living, what kind of house would you be living in, stuff like that.

I think we would probably be better off, in all honesty. We wouldn't be on the system. I feel like when you come over and you're lighter, you're either owning a jewelry shop or restaurant, just like top‒you're gonna multiply that money. But you come like my skin color, I think you got to work hard for everything that you own. That's just what I see here because if you look at it, the people who are actually making it big in Lowell and running restaurants, it's all the lighter skinned people that are sitting there, making–I mean I could be the chef or something but I don't think I'd be owning that restaurant or something.

“I feel like when you come over [from Cambodia] and you're lighter, you're either owning a jewelry shop or restaurant, just like top‒you're gonna multiply that money. But you come like my skin color, I think you got to work hard for everything that you own.”

If you could change anything, what would you do and what would you change and why?

I don't think I’d change anything ‘cause I think whatever I went through is what shaped me to embrace who I am today. So, if I cut any of my hardship out or if I cut anything to make it easier, I don't think I'd be that strong person today to be able to take in certain things. I don't think I’d flourish as much. It’s almost like I grew out of the dirt just like a flower. Yeah, I don't think I'd change anything. I don't want to even change anything in my life ‘cause I think it leads you to where you need to be in life and how to embrace certain things. I think it took me to kind of go through the difficulties of an immigrant to realize how my community needs help or what is needed to make things better for us. 

“I feel like even as a Khmer nurse, it's very difficult for me to deal with Cambodian clients ‘cause obviously if I tell you to do something, my words mean nothing if a White nurse says it. If a White nurse says it, they will yes them to death, like “yes, you're right, you're very educated,” but if I was to say it, my words don't mean as much as their words because they always think I'm less than. It’s very, very real. They don't trust me as a nurse. I mean they trust me, but they don't trust me to the fact that if it was between me and‒I'm sure it could be even colorism too‒like between me and a lighter skin nurse [even light skin Cambodians]. I'm sure they're gonna listen to the lighter skin nurse versus me.”

Is there anything that you would like to add or say, or anything you'd like to say to the Cambodian community or the audience in general?

Try to embrace your own culture. Don't allow yourself to be put into a category like you have to be lighter or Chinese to be the best group. Just be comfortable with you, in general. I mean I fell for that trap, it was just like everybody was claiming Chinese, I’m like, “me too.” But, I think you just have to love your own culture ‘cause like you said, we're all mixed in one form or another, but you have to be comfortable and love yourself.

I just see that colorism and it's within every culture. I mean even Chinese people have their darker Chinese or they're lighter, and in India as well. You're very poor when you're very dark. And I just think, and even in the Black community, lighter skin versus dark skin‒they’re perceived as prettier. I think it is pretty the way you are born, whether you're light or dark or whatever, and I'm so glad my daughter's the way she is. She's so into herself.