Pam, 32

Santa Ana, California | June 22nd, 2021

Date of interview: July 20th, 2020

I was born in Fountain Valley, California. I graduated a while ago. My major, I did Earth and Planetary science but I focused on health too, so it's like a mix between public health and Earth and Planetary science.

What year did your family come to the US?

I think they're the ‘80s.

Did you know which province or where in Cambodia your family came from or lived in?

My mom, she came from Battambang, but then my dad, he’s from the city so Phnom Penh.

Both my parents are–it's night and day in terms of their complexions. My mom is very Chinese, pale white skin and my dad's darker. But, I took on his skin color so every time they see me and my mom together, they're like, “You guys look alike, but is your husband Black?” It's always like that. They don't think of it like, “Does that resonate with them? Okay, maybe she has a darker skin Cambodian husband,” so they just think that she probably got with a Black guy. That was the thing, I remember meeting a friend and she was like, “Oh yeah, she's Black and Filipino.” I was like, “No, I’m Cambodian.” I guess they’re just so used to seeing lighter skin on Cambodians. In Berkeley, I think I was the darkest in our Khmer club. I'm the darkest‒I mean it's hard to tell right now and plus I've been inside, but I can turn really dark. Like, I go to Hawaii for one week and I came back like five shades darker.

What is your ethnicity? 

I've never done those ancestry tests, so I don't know for sure but it's just word of mouth because my parents, they've been separated from their parents for some time so they don't know exactly what they are but it's just like word of mouth. My mom thinks she's mixed with Chinese, Vietnamese too. I guess it makes sense because she's super light skinned compared to the normal or standard Cambodian, so she's definitely mixed. But, my dad, he kept saying that he's Cambodian so I just tell people I’m Cambodian, that’s it. I’m mainly Cambodian, I'm probably mixed somewhere in there but yeah, let's just say I'm Cambodian.

How connected would you say you feel to Khmer culture?

I mean, I'm really connected because growing up, I mean my parents really wanted me to be more assimilated to the American culture, I mean that's why they gave me like a pretty White name, Pam. They're like, “Okay, we're not gonna give you a middle name, it's just gonna be Pam. People can't mess up.” They really really want to be immersed into the culture as much as possible. That means speaking English first before learning how to speak Khmer. But, I've always been interested. I think my interest in the culture started with through karaoke and dancing. It was just watching those. I was like, “Oh, I want to dance like them, I wanna wear those pretty dresses or pretty outfits like them!” 

So, it started off like that but I wanted to learn the language too. I wanted to learn how to read or write, and do all that. But, I wasn't able to because that was not a priority for me to learn growing up, and so I finally learned in college when I met Lok Kru/លោកគ្រូ (our teacher). Yeah, I think beginner Khmer was a little easy for me, I think I only benefited from learning…the alphabet. I didn't know anything about the alphabet, so that was pretty much why I learned, but in terms of language, I think I'm a little bit more advanced than the typical beginner Khmer students.

How do you feel about your facial features? So, your nose, your eyes, your lips, your face shape, how do you feel about them?

There are certain parts I like about my face, like I love my eyes, they’re not small, and my lips, I've always liked those about me. I have more of a rounder face, and‒I don’t know, people like pointing out my nose often. It makes me really insecure about it, like I know it's pretty thick compared to what a lot of the Asian beauty standards are like they’re pointy, thin, or small. Yeah, there are some features I like and some that I don’t. But, I also love my hair too. I think that's part of it right? The whole head.

How would you describe your hair texture and how do you feel about it? Well, you said you loved it but feel free to elaborate more.

I have really wavy hair, like it's a typical‒I think Khmer [have] pretty wavy hair. Oh yeah, I got it from my dad and it's very thick and voluminous. It's pretty much what everyone tries to go for anyways, so yeah, I’ve always loved my hair. It’s not‒I don't have to do much to it. All I have to do is just shampoo and conditioner and brush my hair, we’re good to go. 

Was it always like this while growing up? Did you ever have any differing feelings or did you like it less, like it more when you were younger? 

Well my nose, I always felt that way. I don't like anyone commenting on my nose. I don't want anyone staring at me around that area, general area because it's my most insecure feature.

Can you describe your skin color?

It's borderline medium dark to dark, my normal skin color, but with a hint of yellow tone to it. So, somewhere around there. But yeah, I'm pretty dark, [my undertone] just doesn't show much.

How do others describe your skin color? We're mainly talking about the Cambodian society and the Cambodian community, but then also feel free to include what other people thought about your skin color as well, not just Cambodians. How do other people perceive your skin color?

See I don't mind if people will say sraem/ស្រអែម (tan), it's usually more‒it's a flattering way to like‒it's like calling someone tan. I wouldn't mind people calling me that, but I don't usually encounter that. I get more of like, “Oh, khmao/ខ្មៅ​ (black),” and then like, “Oh, you're dark like ptyeong/ធ្យូង (charcoal),” you know, the charcoals. I get that a lot. And, that’s like mainly from the Cambodians around here that I know of, but I'm in a‒well, it's not really an interracial relationship‒he's also Asian but he's Taiwanese, and he's really fair in terms of complexion compared to me and we get a lot of stares from people. Obviously, they do not think I’m a good match for him because I’m too dark for him. I get a lot of stares, they say stuff in Chinese, so I don't really speak the language so I don't know what they're saying but I know it's obviously not pleasant comments, or comments about my skin color. 

How do you feel about your skin color?

Oh, wow that’s hard. It's a love and hate relationship, really. I think I go through waves like sometimes I want to be lighter because I stand out too much. I'm the darkest among my cousins, like my female cousins, they're all lighter skinned compared to me. And when I was in Berkeley as a student, everyone else, they’re all light. I mean, we had a lot of non-Cambodians in there and then, okay, maybe someone's darker but they're not Cambodian. But, I'm talking about in terms of all the Cambodians, I'm like the darkest so I really stand out and I have noticed that any pictures someone posts or something you do like differently, they'll be noticed for it like, “Oh yeah, they're really beautiful,” and I don't think I've ever been told I was beautiful. So, most of the time it's like I don't like my skin color, I think I actually thought about like‒people use those papaya soap and to kind of just lighten up their skin. I've been offered that before and I was like, “You know what, just join the crowd and just use it too.” I thought about it but then I was like, “I don't want to change anything about me,” just love myself and I found someone who actually loves me for my skin color. I guess that's all that matters: when someone else sees that beauty in you. It's a love and hate relationship but I mean I'm loving my skin color a lot more than I used to. It was an unhealthy relationship.

Was the papaya soap the only thing that you used or did you use other creams?

I never used the papaya soap. It was something I thought of because it was offered and my mom, she uses the lightening cream just everyday, it’s like her thing. I’m like, “But, you’re already light! What do you need it for? You’re already pale, what are you trying to lighten? People are already noticing that you're way lighter than I am.” But, those were the two things I noticed that we use or, at least, in my community. I haven't personally used any of them, I mean I use brightening serums and toners but they're not meant to change my complexion whatsoever. It's more like, I go hiking a lot and then I get an even skin tone, like my forehead, you can tell it's really darker than my cheeks, so it's more so to kind of just balance it out, the skin tone. It's not so much to be lighter or anything.

How do you feel when people offer you those products?

I don’t like it because I'm in a room full of people and then I'm the only one being offered that. I'm like, “Okay, they obviously don't think I'm good looking or beautiful. That's why they're giving me these things,” and they're always like, “Oh, you know, lighter skin. You'll look more beautiful, people will see you or at least you'll find a husband if you're lighter skinned.” It's a lot of the older people who would always say that if I’m in a room full of elders.

So, I see that also in the Cambodian community even if we're not lightening our skin chemically, sometimes a lot of us will wear lighter foundation, or maybe subconsciously wear lighter foundation. I’m wondering if that was true for you too.

I get more so certain colored outfits like I'm supposed to wear a certain color in order to stand out or be able to be seen or something, especially during dance performances and whatnot. They’re like, “Oh, I mean you’re so dark in there. You kinda need to wear this color or to stand out.” But in terms of foundation, no. I don't really wear makeup so people don't really mention those things, but yeah I get more of that and it's more people focus so much on these products. I'm like 32 and I'm not married yet, and they're like, “If you want to be married, you should focus on lightening your skin,” those kind of things.

“...[T]hey’re like, ‘If you want to be married, you should focus on lightening your skin.’”

Do you have any siblings?

Yes, I have two younger brothers.

Are you the lightest, darkest, or same tone between your immediate family? And this can include your parents too.

Well, my mom's the lightest, but I'd say about my brothers and I and my dad, we’re about the same in terms of skin color. I guess I'm a little lighter right now, just a little tidbit because I'm indoors more and they're always going out and running or exercising. It comes with it where they’re darker a little bit now. 

Do you know if they get similar comments too regarding their skin color?

I think for guys, it's more accepting. I mean, they don't really get the same comments as in girls. I get more of that than my brothers. But, people have mentioned them being dark, but it's not the same, it doesn't affect them or hurt them the same way it hurts me.

I mean, it's like if I had a sister, maybe yeah, we'll share the same experiences. But, they're my brothers, they don't go through it the same way it hurts me.

I mean, I'm not speaking for myself, but society finds darker guys more attractive like when they’re told, “Oh, they’re tall, dark, and handsome.” That's something that's more accepting, whereas with girls, especially in the Asian culture, we’re supposed to be light skinned, we're supposed to have those Chinese features, like that's “Asian,” it's like the Korean, the Chinese, those are like the standard or Asian standard of beauty especially like in Cambodian movies or those karaoke videos. Everyone's striving to be Korean or Chinese looking. So that's like, beautiful, and I don't have those Chinese features, I’m not light skinned. It’s tough. It’s tough being a dark skinned Asian in general. 

Would you say that you're at the darkest, the lightest, in the middle, in the middle but on the dark side, or in the middle on the light side with respect to the rest of Cambodia?

I wouldn't say I'm the darkest but I'm more in that range though. I'm not the darkest but it's there; I'm considered a little in the dark range.

Thinking about Cambodian advertisements, TV shows, movies, comedies, karaoke, music videos, even apsara paintings, all those forms of Cambodian media, do you feel represented? Do you feel like you see people who look like you in those forms of media?

No, I do not see myself being represented well, at least like in as beautiful. I know a lot of the comedians are darker skinned, but then they're more perceived as clowns. So if anything, that's what people are probably seeing me as. You know like, “Oh, she's khmao/ខ្មៅ​ (black), it's more like for humor,” it's not so much for, “She's beautiful.” So, yeah, that hurts.

Let's say you are casted in Cambodian media by the producers, so not you casting yourself but them casting you. And let's say in a movie, for example, or in a comedy or music video, what roles do you think you would be casted as? What do you think you'd be doing, your job, your look, your lines, would they put you as?

Well, I’d just be that comedy relief person. The person who everyone just laughs at. It could be a drama and then I would be that person just like dressing in outlandish outfits just having everyone just laugh at me. I probably wouldn't be the main character ‘cause it's just how it is. They're not going to‒not a lot of people want to see a dark skinned girl be the lead in a movie or in any form of media. So, I would be that comedy relief just for people to just laugh at.

In Cambodia, these elite spaces such as being in the media, being in these movies, or just in places of power and wealth, why is it that or why do you think that these spaces are always significantly lighter?

I don't know if it has to do with politics, like how we’ve been conquered by different countries and they’re usually lighter skin, and maybe that's just how it is like we see those figures like, “Okay, they're lighter, they're should be in places of power,” and then if you're darker or anything less, you're just considered dirt poor because that's how a lot of the poor people, especially in the countryside like, “Okay, they're darker because they work the fields. They're poor.” Usually people in the countryside aren't really as educated, and that's what people associate with darker skin color: poor, hard working, or doing manual labor.

Can you describe how colorism affects your life? 

It affects me in terms of like relationships in general, like if I have a crush on someone or if I have a crush on someone like, “Okay, should I let them know? What are my chances of getting with this person? Does he have a preference for like my skin color or am I too dark for him?” It’s usually like it affects that space like my relationships. Fortunately with the current person I'm with, he didn't‒my skin color didn’t bother him at all. He told me I was beautiful and someone's able to accept me for my skin color, but the thing is I didn’t have a lot of luck with relationships or with guys because I was always someone's second choice, third choice. I'm never like someone's first like, “Oh, hey this person’s beautiful.” It's always like, “Okay, I'm their backup plan.” That's how I’ve always been like, “Okay, he doesn't really like me. He loves that girl but that girl looks like she isn’t into him. She has more options. She has options to say no, and he’ll just bounce to me because I’m like that person, the second option.” 

That's how I've always felt and that's pretty much it, the part where it affects the most in my life and I don't really see it in other realms of my life. At work, a lot of my coworkers are more tan to darker and so, we're really diverse at work so it's more accepting. I've never been‒people rarely talk about my skin, but it's more so in relationships. 

...Sometimes those guys, those darker skin guys, still they favor the lighter features. So in the end, I'll just secretly crush on them but never do anything about it because most of the time, I'm right. Those guys I liked, they did like lighter skinned girls. When I don't really try, that's when I was fortunate enough to find someone who likes me for my complexion, who finds me beautiful for everything that I am.

How do you think that your skin color affected the way you think of yourself, even subconsciously at times?

I like to wear a lot of long sleeves like sweaters, especially even if it's hot outside. I'll wear it because I get like really bad brown spots on my arms especially and it’s just‒I had to hide myself a lot because I need to cover myself so I don't show my dark features or get even darker. It's frustrating because most of the time, I have to cover myself and that's pretty much it. 

Do you happen to have any personal stories that you remember that just deal with colorism or any memories that you just always remember? ‘Cause I know I always have some.

I did [have] this throwback picture of Berkeley and it was just one of those things where I came across it. It was like a freshman year picture of when‒during our...performance, and it was taken pretty much in the dark, and I'm already dark as is but then I was a lot skinnier and I would think like, “If I was lighter, people would have reacted differently to it.” So, someone mentioned, “Oh, what happened?” It's more like a shock, they weren't really talking about like, “Oh, you've gotten bigger,” it wasn’t in regards to that, it was more so like, “Oh, you were so dark, what happened?” that kind of thing. It was more like an emphasis on my skin color like, “You were too dark,” and that just‒I don't know, at that time I just felt like, “Oh, okay. There's something wrong with me. I'm not seeing something that someone’s seeing.” That's one thing that has always been haunting me even up to now. I’m like, “Oh, maybe I shouldn't post anything more because people are gonna say something like, ‘Oh, you've gotten bigger, or you're dark, you're so dark, what happened? You bleached yourself...’” Honestly, I've just gotten a little lighter, but yeah, I was really dark my freshman year. I think I'm darker than a lot of my African American friends sometimes, yeah, they really stand out. That comment really hurt me.

When would you say the first time you realized, “there is something wrong with me and it's because of my skin color,” or something like that? How old were you when you first realized that?

I think I‒more so in high school towards the end of my high school years ‘cause my best friend at the time, she's Chinese Cambodian so she's really fair, and my cousins are also Chinese Cambodian, they're fair too, so I felt it a lot when it comes to being around them. They get compliments, “Oh, they're really beautiful,” like we'll take a group picture and then, “Oh, you're pretty,” and then they'll see my friend or someone else, “Oh, but wow, she's beautiful.” And then you forget that, “Okay, I'm just pretty but it's not enough, it's not as beautiful as this other person.” I have to try harder. I feel like that's what I had to do. Like do my hair or makeup, dress pretty, I had to try more in order to get someone to see that beauty or to get anyone to compliment at all.

In terms of skin bleaching and all these things, how do you feel about it, just in general? Especially with Cambodians, a lot of Khmer people bleaching and brightening their skin, how do you feel about it?

Personally‒I mean at one point, I think I thought about it; it was something like okay, it's a trend, everyone's doing it, it's safe I guess, I don't hear anything about it but I don't feel right about injecting random stuff into my skin. That’s why I've never done it or actually acted on it. I mean, good for people who want to do it, but I think we should just embrace our color more or learn to. I want to see how Cambodians look like without all of these things. I'm pretty sure a lot of us would be more okay with being our colors. A lot of people are really just running off and bleaching their skin, but we don't see that because everyone‒that's the thing that they want to do, it’s like we're trying to be this Asian beauty standard of being Korean or Chinese looking. I feel like even just the way we're dressing or our hairstyles––we're really adopting their cultures, style, and way of doing makeup. I noticed it especially right now, like I've just looked up like Khmer stars and I’m like, “Oh, they look like those Korean pop stars,” or they're trying to do like a knockoff version of it. 

What kind of jobs do you see people like you working in Cambodia and I know you haven't been to Cambodia, but what do you imagine that people with your skin tone, what kind of jobs do you see them working?

Well for me, probably just maybe being in the market or something and selling fruits and vegetables or working in the farm, that kind of thing, or I might not even get a job, probably end up being some housewife because it's gonna be hard for me to find a job, and definitely not––even though given my education, what you would be able to apply for things and be qualified for different jobs over there but because I'm dark, I'm not going to get the job because of how they view me.

What about people who are much darker than you in Cambodia? So with just much darker Cambodians, what kind of jobs do you think that they work in Cambodia?

I mean, I don't have friends who are darker than me, at least that I communicate with, in Cambodia––so I know my friends are working in business, they're holding higher positions. So, I'm assuming these people who are darker than me are probably not even working anywhere in [those higher positions]. They're probably working in the country or somewhere where I’m not going to be able to communicate with them ‘cause it's like, I don't have friends who are from the country. So probably over there, or somewhere hidden.

What about Cambodians who are significantly lighter than you? So, thinking about the Cambodians who we've been talking about as the ideal for example, what kind of jobs do you see those Cambodians working in Cambodia?

I think it depends, like if they're beautiful, they can be models, they can be singers, they can be whatever they want. I mean like in terms of I just like myself, as an educated person, and if I'm lighter, I would probably be in a more predominantly privileged position, like a manager or something up there. But, yeah, if you're beautiful or a model, you’ll probably be a model or a singer.

We want you to try to imagine a world where you were much lighter, had different features maybe like a smaller, pointier, “ideal” Cambodian nose, if you had different hair––just imagine the ideal Cambodian person. How do you think your life would be different, like, how would your relationship with your family be different?

Well definitely I wouldn't be like a joke to my family, well I mean they're not like, you know, treating me like any less, but you know, I'm always that person they're kind of making fun of in terms of my skin color because I’m dark, but it’s all love according to them, they’re just saying it, and they love me. So I definitely wouldn’t have to deal with that if I was a lot lighter, and just in terms of their expectations for me would be a lot different, too, because I'm darker and not, you know, what's considered beautiful by our standards. I was pushed to really work harder, focus more on school, really like go out there because, you know like, I'm not gonna be that person who a rich guy is gonna find beautiful and like try to marry me, so I have to rely on myself to, work hard for things, because they think there's like two types of girls. Like if you're beautiful and light skin, you don't really have to try that hard because like you're going to get the guy, like some rich guy is going to come to you, you're going to be that trophy wife, and then there are girls like us, who are darker. And we're not that pretty or like, I'm not pretty. Okay. We have to work harder, we have to rely on ourselves for things and I’ve been getting that a lot. So, yeah, I guess, their expectations for me would be different if I'm lighter.

I think I’m still insecure right now, like, my self esteem is pretty low. I'm socially awkward, so, and that's with me being dark skin, and like so I have a hard time like interacting with other people, but I think I would be more confident and like, you love yourself more if you're lighter or perceived as beautiful, and I’ll probably be more popular among them. Like, that's what I think, it would be a different experience from what I’m dealing with right now.

How would your relationship with members of the opposite gender be different if you were this lighter person?

I guess I would have more guys, like more options, or I wouldn't have to crush on someone in private. Most of the time I'm just hiding who I'm having a crush on. I'm just liking someone from afar, because I know that they'll think of me as a joke if I ever, ever let them know my feelings, or they'll just tell me that “Oh, like someone else.” I guess I would have more compliments. Especially when it comes to that. I don’t have much luck with guys. Fortunately, my last relationship was four years and this one’s eight years; I've been fortunate enough to have long-lasting long-term relationships, but I mean like, in terms of getting the guys, it's hard, you know, like I went through Berkeley without ever letting anyone know I had a crush on them. I was like, “Oh my goodness, I'm never going to find anyone” because you know, like this is where you meet people, you meet someone in college! Because like, once you get out of college, oh my goodness, I would have to rely on online dating or something. I don't know, that's what I was thinking at that time like “Oh great, I’m just gonna end up like being that kind of person.” Then I found someone like towards the end of my last year of Berkeley, so yeah, you'll find someone. Someone will love you for your skin, okay. You don't have to try.

How do you imagine marriage will be affected by your skin tone? And it doesn't have to be talking about your current relationship, either; it can be hypothetical or just what you know people have told you in the Cambodian community. What role does your skin color, yours  specifically, play in marriage?

I mean, at some point they did bring up arranged marriage, if you’re whiter or fairer skin and color. That's the ideal bride. There's certain features, like you can't be too skinny and you can't be too big, because the super skinny ones are like showing that they're not that healthy, so they need to learn a little bit more to be healthier, but they also need them lighter skin. So, I guess, if I'm lighter, I would be the ideal bride and probably in some arranged marriage going on. But I’m glad my parents never pushed me to pursue that route because I wouldn't want to be in an arranged marriage. That sounds horrible like. It's a very backward way of thinking, especially when they're leaving their country for a better start over here. You don't want to go and do the same thing a lot of people over there are doing with being in arranged marriage, sad, but personally I wouldn't affect me because I wouldn't be in that situation, or maybe I'll just have more suitors. That's it but that's all.

Have you ever wanted your spouse to be lighter or darker than you? Have you ever thought about what color, in terms of skin tone, you wanted your spouse to be?

I thought that if the guy is darker, he won’t have a problem with me being dark, in that way of thinking, yes, I wanted someone darker, but fortunately–my boyfriend's really light compared to me, [but] we didn't think about skin color. I didn't question should I be with this person because he's lighter than me? I loved him the way he is; I wouldn't want him to be darker than me.

Would you want your children to be lighter or darker than you? 

I think I have to say that yes, I prefer them to be lighter than me because–I mean, I'm fortunate enough in my line of work that there's a lot of diversity and whatnot but I would have more room for promotions or higher ranked positions if I was lighter. I would have to really know how to prove myself really hard, and because I'm coming off as a bitter aggressive person sometimes  because I feel like I'm not being heard. Like, I had to be really loud in order to get my points across, and if my children were lighter, they wouldn't have to go through the same thing. I would hope that maybe in the future our children wouldn't have to deal with that, that we’ll have a better understanding or more appreciation towards people of darker skin color, then we wouldn’t have to deal with this but in our current society, lighter skin gets you more opportunity. I talked to my boyfriend and he's lighter and he's a guy. He doesn't really see my struggles, he’ll go to interviews and he’ll get a high position, just for–I don’t know what he does, but like, it doesn't take a lot of convincing to get that job. Whereas for me I had to really go for it like really fight for it. I feel like my battles are a lot tougher than what he's going through, and I wouldn't want my children to have that same experience as me.

[about being heard]

They're just choosing to hear you in certain situations, like, you're not paying attention to me fully. My brother just called me out the other day, like “Why are you raising your voice? I can hear you, Pam, you don't have to really scream or yell.” And I’m like, you guys aren’t listening to me. You guys aren’t hearing me. I’ve always constantly had to be the loudest person at the table, in the room, in order to get my points across, even if it comes off as annoying because your voice is high pitched and super loud. But at least it’s loud enough for you to react to it. That's all I want. I want to be heard or I want you to react to what I'm telling you. I feel like I'm dealing with that lot more, everywhere.

Yeah, where you're representing the face of the company or you're interacting with people, that's what they want to see. They want to see someone with lighter skin, whereas people who are darker, they're in the back. They're being hidden, and they're working probably as a janitor or somewhere in the back where you don't really see that. I can only assume that's what's going on in Cambodia because the people who I don’t really know who are in these higher positions are lighter skinned. And then my friends, I’m not going to hate them for that, but I don't see a lot of darker-skin people in that line of business.

Imagine a world where both your parents were lighter. We'll assume that you were lighter too if you're both your parents were lighter. How do you think your life would be different, like what kind of education would you have, what kind of house would you be living in, where would you be located?

If we were all lighter skinned, it would be a lot different from my experience right now. I feel like people don't really associate with–or at least Cambodians, actually based on my interactions with the elders, especially the more traditional ones–want to be friends with lighter skin, they probably have a lot of wealth, or they’re more lucky (in a Chinese context), they associating lighter skin with wealth and being lucky and prosperous and they'll just have more people wanting to associate with them or just be friends with them so they'll get more help. Even though my mom's lighter skin, she's with a darker skinned guy. They don't get a lot of people wanting to be friends, we don’t really have people coming over to our house often, so yeah it would be different. We would be more popular, I guess, or have more people wanting to be around us. We’ll probably have more opportunities like when you have more connections, you'll have more opportunities to have more people wanting to do things with you. You’ll probably have more business opportunities, like if you're making friends with someone they’ll probably want to do business with you, and just that kind of thing. So, life would be a lot different than how it is right now.

If you could change anything in your life, what would you change or what would you do?

I would like for my battles to be a lot easier than I'm going through right now, but I'm really appreciative of the lessons that I've learned from it and I actually like how it has changed me, so I probably wouldn't want to change anything. It would make things a lot easier for me, but I am grateful for what it has taught me. I wouldn’t change anything.

And the last question is, knowing that this is going to be on a public website, is there anything that you wanted to add, anything you remembered, or you just thought of while we were talking, or just anything you'd like to say to the audience?

In terms of colorism, I think I've experienced it a lot more within our Khmer community than from outsiders. You would think that you would get more of that feeling a certain way from outsiders, like, non Cambodians, but it's your own people. That’s why it hurts because these are your own people. 

I have a hard time trusting Khmer people or having that deep relationship with them because of how they respond to me, or to everyone that's not like, light skin. It's harder for me, you know, like I’ve seen tan Cambodians, but I'm more on the darker end and it's to the point where people are just not really nice sometimes. It’s tough. It’s the same experience with the Black community with lighter-skinned Blacks and darker-skinned.