Sam, 27

Jersey City, New Jersey | September 22th, 2022

Date of interview: August 14th, 2020

My name is Samantha, born in Long Beach, California. 

I was originally at a charter high school, managing their data systems, recording alumni outcomes, so really like putting it all together but then I decided––actually it's been like almost four years in the making––to attend law school.

I'm really excited to start law school in the fall, but prior to that I was a consultant for a couple years right after college, and…didn’t like it, went to education, was really inspired by the work that I witnessed at the charter high school. And then [I] really started thinking about where my place was in social justice and the fight for social justice and realized there just weren't enough Khmer lawyers in general. So I was like, I have the time, I have the intellectual curiosity for it––I really do want to kind of immerse myself in this sort of field––so why not do it? I mentioned I'm originally from Long Beach but I went to Columbia for my undergrad. So, I've dealt with being like the first or only Cambodian friend that people have made all the way out here, and finding community out here is definitely very different than back at home. So, I did take for granted the community that I had back in Long Beach, and I've only just recently sort of started reconnecting with it, once I realized that there wasn't much of a––there is a community––but it's not as like as big as it is, and it's mostly more made up of young professionals.

What is your ethnicity?

Documentation even from that era has been very hard to trace back. What I know, on my mom's side, my grandpa was definitely, I think pretty Chinese and Vietnamese. My grandma, as far as we know, is pure Cambodian because her relatives all like dark, like Indigenous dark. And then, on my dad's side, they were like Kampong Chhnang people? I suspect there's some mixing of Vietnamese, but we think that it's mostly Khmer, but they are pretty light skinned when they don't––not the purposeful bleaching, but like when my dad doesn't see the sun for a while, he does get lighter but he is naturally tan but not dark. So, not dark like my grandma on my mom's side’s relatives who are like completely dark, like it’s a different skin tone. But I also did a 23andme ’cause they were offering it for free for Southeast Asian people.

How connected do you feel to Khmer culture?

I think I feel pretty connected in some ways. I grew up doing classical Cambodian dance. I grew up very close to my maternal grandparents, so my mom's grandparents––and my grandma, she was the one who was like, “you're gonna know.” So, she would put on music and videos, and luckily being in Long Beach I enrolled in Khmer Arts Academy, which I actually sit on the Board of Directors now, so it kind of came full circle. And even though we aren’t strictly religious, per se, we did do temple like twice a year for Pchum Ben [and] for Khmer New Year. So, just like the chantings and sort of meanings behind it, while I don't fully understand or grasp it, I do take it as a part of what I feel is spirituality more than anything. So, I feel like in that sense, I do feel connected because I was purposely raised with these types of things. What I do feel disconnected about are sort of like the more patriarchal, very patriarchal, ideas around what women should and shouldn't do. I think that's probably been the biggest clashing point between me and my mom and sort of like my agency and growing up in a Western environment will kind of get that individualism in you flaring. It's not about the collective anymore, it's about you. So, that's kind of where I don't really adhere to or feel comfortable talking about when I'm talking to other folks about the culture. But, you know, I am grateful that I know the language, I can read it pretty okay, I can still write it, I like the more cultural underpinnings of Buddhism and then also did dance when I was young. 

How do you feel about your facial features?

So, facial features I really prized having a double eyelid because that was just something my mom loved. So, let me give a bit of context. She really doesn't like admitting that we are mixed, like Chinese, Vietnamese, with East Asian descent, for whatever reason. We haven't been able to unpack that yet; I'm working on her with other things. So, she really just loved the fact that I had more of my dad's features ’cause she has more–I would say–Vietnamese features from my grandpa. But my dad has the more like traditionally Khmer features where it's like big eyes, double lids, flat nose, large lips kind of thing. So I grew up loving that I had double eyelids and I didn't know it was a thing until I met East Asian people and was like, “oh,” and didn't realize that there was such an obsession in East Asian culture about it. So, I did grow up loving it. 

I didn't like my nose as much because they used to do that thing where they like pinch your [nose]. My grandma used to do that; she'll pinch my nose all the time. And so, I kind of wished I had a higher nose, like higher nose bridge, higher pointier nose. But, I've had to sort of decolonize myself and learn to love my features the way they are. Yeah, and I've learned to love the way I look only more in recent [years] like adulthood, but I never felt ugly or anything like that. It was more like, “you would be prettier if you had a sharper nose, or if you had a longer face” because I have a pretty round and short face. That's from my dad. I have pretty much my dad's face except with like feminized features. But my sister actually has a more long oblong face and takes after my mom a bit. But, we still have very flat noses <laughs>. Yeah, so that's I guess how I felt growing up about my features.

How do you feel about your hair?

That has also been a journey too! When I was young, it used to be like huge. It was like really–I would say almost kinky, like it had really big waves, it was really thick. Again, I think I had generally positive sort of interactions with it. Every time I got my haircut done, “Oh, her hair is so healthy, it's so strong, it's so thick.” But then when I went to middle school, and I think this was like early 2000s, so the trend at the time was everyone had really straight hair, everyone loved ironing the shit out of their hair. I have no idea why. But it was just a trend like the way eyebrows were thin, luckily I never bought into that <chuckles>. So, I remember during middle school, all the White girls in my class would have like very thin, flat hair, and I did go through a phase of trying to straight iron my hair every morning to fit the trend and then realize one, it’s so bad for my hair and two, it took up way too much time and I'd rather sleep in. So, I stopped caring and started to really embrace my hair for what it was because it was so strong and so thick and I realized a lot of White hair is actually quite thin and pretty not resilient. Like my hair could hold a curl, right? It can hold a curl, it can get style, maybe not so much with dying like I haven't really dyed it.

But, I did also have another experience in Cambodia when I went in 2000…I think it was 2006, right after I finished up middle school. These–not cousins but you know, everyone's family. These people–they were pretty rich–they were Chinese Cambodians for sure, very well off, and they did these reverse perm treatments where it's like, instead of getting curls, you get straight hair. And I remember so clearly, they were like, “Oh, you have kinky hair, why don't you go get it done?” And I remember saying, “Oh sure! I would love straight, easy to manage, beautiful hair,” and then my mom was like, “No, you're not getting that shit done.” And, I was grateful that she was like, “she’s not getting that done,” she was really stuck up for me and was like, “she’s not getting that done.” And then, that also kind of solidified going into high school where everyone was more a bit more–my high school was pretty diverse, so I wasn’t always hanging out with the White girls with straight hair, I was hanging out with Black people, Latinx people, that had different textures in the hair and then I didn't feel the need to like conform to specific standards. I was really lucky I had a mom that was like, “No, what–why would she need to be straightening? Her hair is fine the way it is.” So, that's been my experience and right now, I feel like it's a little long, it's a little unruly ‘cause of quarantine but I do generally love the strength that my hair has and don't take it for granted. 

It's interesting to see genetics kind of manifest in different people ‘cause my sister’s hair is thin and straight. It's more East Asian like if you touch her hair, it feels very East Asian in that it’s smooth, versus my hair is very coarse.

Can you describe your skin color?

I would say like tan, warm undertone, like gold looks good on me. Yeah, I used to be a lot darker as a kid. I think we all were dark as kids because we're always out in the sun and especially when I moved to the East Coast, it was very crazy. I went from like the darkest Asian in my cohort of friends and people used to think I was half Black because I was so dark, and I had thick, coarse hair. And then, as time went on and I didn't see the sun as much, I got paler and paler, not on purpose, just no sun. This is kind of like my, I guess, default natural color. So, it's been interesting ‘cause I'm like, “I want to get darker and get back into the sun, but I don't have time to go outside like I used to.” So yeah, I would say like lightly tan and warm undertones, but definitely on the lighter side, for sure.

How do others describe your skin color?

Definitely was khmao/ខ្មៅ (black). Definitely for sure when I was younger because of how much I love the sun, but I have to say it was never in like a derogatory way that I know sometimes it can be associated. I think kind of against the grain, like my grandmother, she liked that I was dark because it did mean that we were like, Indigenous. They thought if you're dark that there's this idea of purity in the bloodline even though it was very clear that we are mixed. So, it was almost counterintuitive, like they think it's good for me to be dark because that means that we have Indigenous blood in us and that we are actually Khmer Khmer. So, in that context, I was always loved for having dark skin, not so much obviously outside of the family. When we went to Srok Khmer/ស្រុកខ្មែរ (Cambodia), they’d always push on whitening creams, especially when I was younger–the hair treatment, all these things to almost East Asian-ify ourselves. When I met relatives, they're like, “Oh, she's quite dark,” and my mom’s like, “Well, she likes the sun, of course she's dark.”

But, I guess I can compare myself a little bit to my sister because my sister actually is dark. Even though she lived in Boston for a while, her color actually never changed. So, her skin was actually naturally dark and mine was darkened by the sun, so it's interesting to see that we're siblings and we have the same parents but we manifest the genetics a lot differently. So actually, when we went to Srok Khmer/ស្រុកខ្មែរ (Cambodia) recently in 2018, this was the first time a lot of our family had seen us in a really long time. So, since I started college, so besides that one trip, I didn't see anyone at that time. They hadn't seen us for a long time, so they saw that I got lighter and saw that my sister was still dark, and they would actually keep calling me beautiful like, “Oh, she's so pretty now.” “She's so pretty now because she's lighter,” or we would get into Grab, or the Uber of Southeast Asia, and they would be like “Kuat Kore/គាត់កូរ៉េ (Is she Korean)?” or “Kuat kat Kore/គាត់កាត់កូរ៉េ (Is she part Korean)?” and then we’d be like,” “What? No! She’s Cambodian like through and through.” “Oh, she's so light skinned,” and I was like, I'm not even that light skinned, I feel. I'm lighter, but I'm still darker than my husband who’s Chinese and darker than the average East Asian, but I guess, it's still light in context to other folks. 

So, it's just really fascinating that that's how I'm perceived, even compared to my sister who is naturally dark. And like I said, I was really fortunate that my family, for some reason or other [reasons], didn't deter me from going outside because of the sun, didn't deter or look down on me for being dark for whatever reason that might be. So, I grew up in a very loving environment in that sense, and then only when I was talking to other Cambodian Americans or even other people in the community that I was more cognizant of that. And when you hear one thing, you kind of go against the grain where if they keep telling you, “Oh, get lighter,” well, I want to get darker then, or vice versa. So, that was something that I would find interesting, but I'm okay with the color I am now. Just know that this is how I am naturally.

Where do you think your skin, hair and features come from?

Yeah, I think I would probably do eyes, nose, lips to Khmer just because of what I associate with Khmer features, I think I get it mostly from my dad than maybe from my mom or my grandma, because my mom has smaller eyes, but she has a broad nose and lips, still. So, I would say these features are Khmer. I would say my actual skin tone is definitely more from her, or more, I think more Vietnamese, even, than from my dad’s side just ‘cause how naturally this is the color that I am when compared to my sister. And I would say my hair is Khmer just because–I mean I've seen East Asians with this kind of texture too, like not all East Asians have that straight sleek hair either. Some of them have curly hair too, but I would associate this from the Khmer side because my mom actually has pretty wavy hair, but definitely thinner than mine but will naturally fall in waves.

How do you feel about your skin color?

I think I'm very lucky that I had a pretty nurturing environment, so I never hated my skin or ever wanted it to be a different color. So, I can say that much through during when I was darkest to when I became lighter, I sort of just take it in stride. I was a little sad when I realized that my true color wasn't as dark as I had thought it was because it felt like I was almost–I don't know, it was a weird way of losing a part of my identity because I did love my dark skin so much and only to realize that it was pretty reliant on the sun as opposed to the natural tanned tone that you have. But, I never hated it, I was just like, “Oh, I guess I'm this color.” 

I think I mentioned it too in all the context, but growing up in a pretty diverse neighborhood, like in middle school, it was diverse even though we had like White girls with textured hair, I had some Khmer friends and Vietnamese people, Mexican and Latinx people around me. So, there was enough diversity that I didn't feel like I hated myself or wanted to conform to a specific aesthetic. It was a little more insular in middle school, but then with high school, I would say that my high school is like half White, half everything else, and I mostly associated with the “everything else.” And so, I never felt like I needed to buy Abercrombie or fit in that sense, and honestly White people would compliment me on my skin. They're like, Your tan is so beautiful, your color is so beautiful like I burned like a lobster,” that kind of thing. And, I was like, “Oh, they love my skin. They wish,” you know. 

And even interacting with Black people and Black friends, I had friends that were biracial so half Black, half White, and they would always joke like, “You're darker than me and I’m half Black,” or Black people are like, “Oh, I like your color ‘cause you're lighter than me, but not so light. You're not like White, you're kind of like an in-between.” So, I don't know, those random weird compliments are sort of–the comments that people would give me about my skin would sort of reinforce my already loving upbringing of my skin color. I guess I didn't feel so othered until I think I got to college and I operated in a lot of East Asian spaces ‘cause there weren't many Southeast Asians in general, and the ones that were were like Vietnamese or Thai and when I say Thai, I mean like rich Thai people, so very pale, very East Asian. I wouldn't have thought they were Thai until they had told me. That was probably the only time where I felt a little self conscious where I was like, “I'm the darkest person in the room,” but I also came to terms of “There's something wrong with that. I'm the darkest person in the room.” So, I’m still [self]-conscious but I never wanted to change that. So, that's how I felt about my skin color. There were moments of self consciousness, but I generally have had a really good relationship with my skin color and through the weird experiences of both White people and other people of color complimenting my tone as kind of the ideal because it's not too dark–there's issues when you're too dark–and not too light, so it's like you’re a nice in-between. That was almost also how I viewed myself too, like an in-between. I'm not Black, I'm not White, but I'm somewhere in between. I have some privileges and some oppressions, but I operate in this weird space physically in how I look as well as socially too. 

I guess that's–yeah and like in Cambodia, every time–I've been back I think five times throughout my lifetime. So ever since I was 10, so that was like 2004 or 2003, up until 2018, so once every couple years. Those are the only times where I was reminded of my color and see how that really plays into classism. It manifests here too, but not in the context of where I was operating in through going to a public high school and in a pretty elite institution. That wasn't an issue because it was really just your merit and who you knew…But in Cambodia, it was always kind of like, “Oh, I am darker, I'm lighter,” depending on when I went back and people treated me differently. It's so funny that they think if you are a certain feature or color, they just don't think you're Khmer. I was like why is Khmer so…why is that the last thing that you want to call me. Why am I Malaysian before Khmer? We look pretty similar, like when I went to Kuala Lumpur, I was like. “Everyone just looks like me.” I don't feel any different features wise, so that's been fascinating. The notion of by the way you carry yourself or by the way you operate, they don't default to Khmer, they default to other types of Asian. That's been interesting because of that weird in-between color. I'm not dark enough, not light enough, you're probably something in-between.

The development and with all this internal pressure to be a certain way for the country in terms of where it fits in ASEAN and the global, I guess, scheme of things, it's just fascinating that you assume, instantly assume, someone who is darker but educated is not Khmer, and I'm like, “The Diaspora runs pretty far.” And yes, there are issues around degree attainment and I acknowledge all of that but it’s also where we have folks in Australia and France and everywhere and as some of us have struggled, we are also a couple generations out where our children, grandchildren depending on where they left, have been able to sort of pursue those things that were seemingly impossible for previous generations. So, I find that interesting that there's a disconnect of that possibility that Khmer folks can attain this and not associate it with being Khmer. They just think, “Oh you have to be something else in order to be that way, or to carry yourself a certain way,” which is kind of sad right because you're like, Khmer folks come in so many different ways and to think that even from the West, there's like a monolith is really interesting to see.

“…[T]here's a disconnect of that possibility that Khmer folks can attain this and not associate it with being Khmer.”

Have you ever done anything to change your skin color? For example, done lighter makeup or foundation or lightening creams?

I've never used lightening creams for the sake of bleaching. It was mostly for hyperpigmentation and right my bad, really bad, acne. And the only other reason why I had lighter makeup was because they didn’t have my shade <laughs>. I can safely say that the reason why I had lighter makeup, if I did use it, was because they didn't have great shade range and the reasons why I lightened my skin was because of the hyperpigmentation caused by my acne rather than trying to bleach. So, I've never used those sort of cosmetics in that way.

Are you the darkest, lightest, or the same skin tone in your family, including your parents too?

Okay, so my mom is definitely the lightest, I'm between her and my sister. My sister and my dad are pretty..I would say on par in terms of darkness, like he…I’m trying to think. Yeah, he's definitely like–both him and my sister are pretty on par. Sometimes she can be a bit darker depending, yeah. That's kind of where it is. 

I mean my grandma was pretty light, even though she says she's Indigenous–her sister is light, like her sisters would be super dark and somehow she just ended up light and she never–I don't think to my knowledge, ever use[d] skin whitening creams and eventually those things wore off. And I remember even growing up, she was yellow and definitely very yellow and tan, but not not dark. And then my grandpa was Chinese, very white. My mom always liked to say, “You can't really judge by the face, you have to judge by what's underneath the fabric,” and so his face would be dark as hell, super dark, and then he lifts up his t-shirt and this part is the whitest it can be <laughs>. And I was like, “Okay, that's grandpa's natural color.” He’s very much Vietnamese, Chinese. You take his face value, he’s dark but he lifts up his shirt and “ooh” <laughs>. Yeah, it's where the sun doesn't touch you, like that's your true color. 

Given the entire Cambodian population, the darkest of Cambodians and the lightest, where would you say you are on that scale?

I would still say middle naturally but at my darkest, I can see myself within the group of darkest people. But even then, the shade was still different. Even at my darkest, I had like a pretty red/yellow undertone so it's more orangey versus when I've seen the darkest Cambodians, their skin is almost like black like there's a cool tone to it almost where it is a cool tone color brown, as opposed to a red or brown that I can get to with enough sun time.

Oh yeah, it's a weird phenomenon too and you can also associate even just by the features. Like if you have [a] certain feature, you kind of associate that or expect darker complexions and then when you see them with a lighter complexion, you're like, “That feels like a bit of a mismatch,” versus the opposite may not apply. You have East Asians who can get really dark, and it won’t look unnatural. So, I don't know if that's an association or something that comes up, but that's important too in terms of what I think.

How do you feel about Cambodian media like karaoke, music videos, apsara paintings, advertisements, TV shows, movies, kamplang/កំប្លែង (comedies), lakorn, and even dance. Do you feel represented? Do you see people who look like you?

Definitely not. I feel like there are things that––but it's not particularly Cambodian though, for sure. I was watching Filipino TV shows and their media and I see the same sort of trends. I think they always want lighter people, or what happens if you see someone who's breaking through fame, like someone who's a fresh star who is Khmer like dark, you see them a couple years later, suddenly they're pale, have a higher nose, or something's changed. And it's really sad to see that they can start off representing you looking Khmer, looking dark, having the features, and then a couple years later into the industry and they've completely changed their appearance. I think that's actually even more sad because they've had to change––physically change––their appearance in order to conform to get jobs, or whatever, as opposed to them already hand picking out pale Cambodians to represent them in media. 

Another thing I noticed is that if there's like a show where it's a man and a woman, whether it be hosting or whatever, the guy's dark, or can be dark. There's a leeway right like they can be dark, they can be light, they can be all shades in between. But, the woman: the woman is always light skinned. Very light skinned. And sometimes when they have a really dark Cambodian man and with a lighter colored woman, I'm like, “they look like they're almost two different races!” or like two different types of people, you know, and I understand there's a diversity to Khmer people but it feels almost purposeful or like this is the ideal woman or what we think is beautiful. But men get a pass, right? Women get to be––they have to be skinny, they have to be pale, they have to have straight hair, all these things, and then like this guy is like dumpy, short, little fat. There's like more leeway for what a Cambodian man can look like, but there's no leeway for what Cambodian women can look like at all. Like if you are a little fat, that's all you're known for like they shit on you the entire time about your weight. If you deviate from that [ideal], that becomes the punch line almost, but you don't see that with the man, whether it be a dark man or lighter skinned man, or if they're fat, skinny, whatever, that doesn't become the punchline. So there's definitely a level of patriarchy in the way media represents, or of what I've seen. Like my mom will send me travel channels about exploring Cambodia, and I'm like, “what are some of these hosts?” 

In terms of Khmer dance, I do see <sigh>, it's a little conflicting for me because I do recognize that they're mostly indoors, they practice indoors, so they're not going to be as darker. But at the same time, a lot of those people come in naturally dark, so it's not like they're gonna lose their tone and it's not like they [don’t] have other things outside of their life that they're just dancers. But for some reason in the front row, the dancers tend to be lighter skin and then the darker dancers are usually in the back or supporting characters, or they are dark and they just plaster a lot of makeup and then after you see them perform and they're in their natural state, you're like, “Oh, you look completely normal. It's just for the performance you kind of had to present this way.” So that's something that I still grapple with and it's really fascinating. 

And even art, rarely––even modern art, I've seen depictions of apsaras and they're light skinned, and I'm like, “Bruh, if she was that light skin, she would get burned in an instant in Srok Khmer/ស្រុកខ្មែរ (Cambodia) back in the day,” you know? <laughs> That's not realistic! And I was growing up like, “I don't understand.” I was like if you as a creator, as an artist, wanted to portray apsaras––and especially Cambodian artists too, it's not even like White people drawing apsaras, it's like Cambodians––I was like, “you've colonized or internalized this idea of like ‘being light skinned is so beautiful’ that you put it on what people consider like Mother of Cambodia or mother like, whatever.” And so, you'll see depictions of other––like I love this artist that does stickers and he does like a slightly tan apsara, and I was like, “See? Someone is cognizant of the colorism that is even in modern production of these arts.” And people also have issues with body, like this one artist produced a dark and slightly chubby apsara, which I thought was the cutest thing; it was very body positive. And like the first comment comes from some man going “Why is there a fat apsara?” I'm like, “do you think everyone was skinny back in the day?” Like I don't understand how this image in you came about. 

So, I think for both media and dance and every like modern interpretation of skin color in Cambodians, there's always an underlying view of patriarchy because it's so present and so clear in the way even the men in our community view the women in our community. And, it's really, really disappointing to see that internalized colonization has manifested in a way where they lash out and don't find darker Cambodian women beautiful, or only like certain or have all these preferences. So, it's really fascinating to see that kind of manifests from social or from like media to into the communities, and the way it informs beauty and what that looks like. 

But that's that's what I've seen and from the people that I've interacted with in Srok Khmer/ស្រុកខ្មែរ (Cambodia) like the cousin–I just call her cousin–who had straight hair and would always put on makeup that was too light for her. Like people strive for these aesthetics and I think women feel way more than men. Like men could give two shits about how they are perceived as long as they're rich and if they're doing well. I frankly don't see a lot of men bleaching their skin compared to women, for sure. There are some for sure, but it's so much more prevalent for women, and it's so sad because this is their way of living or this is the way they can only make a living if they're an entertainer. If they don't conform to these standards, they're not going to get jobs or gigs or whatever if there's a lighter girl that they can pick that can offer the same type of challenge or whatever, so that's something I noticed. It's just really funny too, and I'm watching those karaoke videos and both the man and the woman, they have their natural color but then they pasted on this makeup that doesn't match, and they're out in the fields or they're speaking about farming and like love out in the farm work. And I'm like, “First of all, they're all lip synching, so it doesn't really matter who’s there. Why not actually just have someone darker represent?” Like, what it’s like to find love in the fields, right? And then you have your city folk and all that stuff, so it's just funny that whoever makes these creative choices and we're just gonna put like the lightest skinned Cambodians and then put further light makeup on them in the fields where I'm like, “If you're in the fields, you're going to be dark as hell no matter… <laughs>”

So, it's just weird. I don't know, cognitive dissonance that happens with media and how they portray idealism and how unrealistic it can be, but how insidious it can become for people who do consume that media. Even for people out in srok srae/ស្រុកស្រែ (rice fields), like they will come into the city and think, “Oh, this is how I have to look in order to fit in with city folk,” and I'm sure there's classism underlying there too and the way city folk look down merl ngeay/មើលងាយ (look down upon) on like farm workers or laborers. But, it's also like the ruling class determines beauty, so if the people on top making the most money control media are the lighter skin, they're going to be the ones controlling and picking who they find talented or at least, you know, it's not going to be the farmworkers, or the laborers, or garment factory workers that are controlling the narrative. They're kind of the ones conforming to the mainstream narrative of what beauty is, what people should strive towards to be considered beautiful.

But, patriarchy is the underlying part of what I at least see in media in Srok Khmer/ស្រុកខ្មែរ (Cambodia) and what comes over here.

It's another thing that you bring this up about erasure, like I get, like, in America, White people have erased Indigenous people from the narrative, right. And it's only now that Indigenous people I feel, I think, I don't know if maybe I've just consumed too much of that media, but like I feel like they are coming into their own and reclaiming, you know, what was rightfully, like rightfully, what was taken from them. But it's like another thing for Srok Khmer/ស្រុកខ្មែរ (Cambodia) to erase their own Indigenous folk from the narrative when it's, like, yourself, you know what I mean? And it's because they're not, you know, of the land. Or, I'm sure, I’ve talked about the Philippines a lot, because I see that a lot of like parallels and that you have people who are Spaniards, right, mixed blood, who are, you know, pale. And then you have like Indigenous, like, Filipino folks that are super dark and are still there, you know, but there's, you know, it's really fascinating to see. Like, I get like, okay, the narrative that here's the white-dominant culture, [that’s] why there's erasure, like, I get it, it benefits them. But it's just so intriguing that it happens in Srok Khmer/ស្រុកខ្មែរ (Cambodia) too, and even though it's not a White-dominant narrative, it's definitely, like, definitely, like, very East Asian-dominant and very class-dominant as to why like there is erasure around, you know, Indigenous folks. 

And even like the conversation around like Khmer Krohom/ខ្មែរក្រហម (Khmer Rouge) and like the people in Vietnam that were a part of, you know, our country, like, that in and of itself is like a whole nother topic about, you know, about those folks. So, yeah, yeah, it's just like, what I always think like, how did the Khmer Rouge happen? How did we end up “genocide-ing” our own people right? Like, you know, to be frank, other genocides have happened because they were genocide, like, killing off another people that were completely different, right, whether it be based on religion, right, like the Jews or, or like the Armenian Genocide or even like the Rohinghyan crisis that's happening now. Like there's a basis of difference, right. And to think that we genocided our own people based on class is, like, I think, just like, mind-boggling. Like, we killed our own people. Like, it wasn't some foreign, you know, group coming in and taking over or, you know, like the Spaniards or the British, right. It was our own people, based on class, so I feel like the roots of classism really have continued to manifest in the way Cambodian society looks like today. So, yeah. I don’t know. 

If you were to be casted in Cambodian media, in any of those forms, what role would you be casted as? Not necessarily, like, what you would want to play as, but what would Cambodian producers, given where you would fit in in media, what would they cast you as? What would your lines be like? Your occupation, your role? The way you're dressed, stuff like that. 

Yeah, I mean, I think, to be frank, probably like a supporting character. I probably wouldn't like get the main character if I wanted to, if it was like a drama.

Either like, like the poor best friend, or the girl who was like, I don't know from… not really from the countryside just because I know I'm not dark enough to necessarily play that role. But just maybe, like, a weird, like “she was from the farms and now works in the city but is still poor” or something. Or is, like, staying with family, kind of role, I think. I do recognize that I am lightskinned enough to probably pass for like, like say, a travel channel. And I'm only referencing what I know. So, like, maybe if I was like a travel channel person I could be that like, you know like, skinny, like, light skinned girl that's like bantering with a darker-skinned Cambodian man when we go through and talk about the travels of, you know, the different tourist sites in Srok Khmer/ស្រុកខ្មែរ (Cambodia).

So I can see that. Like I do recognize that I have that privilege because of how light my skin has gotten, and the feedback that I've gotten the last time I was there. You know, people didn't think I was Khmer because I was lighter, right. Not lightest, but lighter, and naturally, like, I think people could tell too. Like, I’m not– I didn't use lightening cream, I just happened to not get any sun and this was like my default skin color. So it's, it was fascinating that people just be like, you know like, what… I can recognize that because of that I may still be casted within the main cast, right? Like the main group, and maybe not so much like the background. 

I think for a dance, I definitely could pass light enough to be like, like in the front or like, at least the main part. Because if they wanted me to be lighter it would look more natural because I can just pile on makeup and it won't look as stark. Maybe my arms and legs would need makeup because my arms and legs are definitely darker than my face. But yeah, that's kind of like how, if I were presented, I would, you know… There was also like, so this is like something that's triggering, but like I remember, like, debates about the Miss Cambodia, like, representative for like, I said Miss Universe or something, I don't know. And you know, people were like, “Oh she's so beautiful,” and I was like “Girl is hella light skinned. Like, I love her, but like, hm, you know she looks weird in all those costumes! This doesn’t hit right.”

It’s unsettling. It’s appropriating, at this point. 

Oh, and like, her features too, like, also disturbed me.  Like, she had the long, oblong face with like, a height, like that – but not high, but like small, like narrower nose, and you know, not to say Khmer looks like a certain thing, but I was like, I remember, like Miss Universe, like Miss Vietnam from a couple years ago. She was bomb as hell. She was like dark, she was tan, she had short hair, like crop, pixie cut. She was goals, and I was like: “If Vietnam was brave enough to put a darker, darker skin – and she was a part of like an Indigenous tribe that spoke like a dialect that was like, super specific in this region of Vietnam, so it's like what she speaks was even different from like what the average Vietnamese speak, and I was like – and they picked her to represent! And you, Srok Khmer/ស្រុកខ្មែរ (Cambodia), which is a lot more known for darker Indigenous people, and you pick, like–homegirl looks Thai. I was like, Thailand already has a representative, why we got two? You know, like Vietnam, gave a darker representative. Like, I was disappointed. I was like, if Vietnam can produce a representative darker than the Cambodian representative – I know they're different years, I think they're different years – but I was like Vietnam can overcome their colorism to recognize beauty in all forms, and she also didn't really have like Western features, and I thought she was extremely beautiful but, you know, I don't know, we still got a lot to unpack and undo. 

So in terms of the pageant, I could potentially see myself as a contestant, but they wouldn't pick me because I don't have the narrow nose; I don't have the longer face, you know. I do have like the bigger double-lid eyes, so they're like, oh, we’ll keep that… because that’s more Western, you know. So that's how I saw myself too. Like, oh, like, representation even from the pageantry isn't that great.

Why is there, or why do you think that these elite spaces, like the pageant, media, or just wealthy spaces in general – in Cambodia specifically – why is it that they're always lighter?

I feel like that's, like, a thesis. Right, like we can write a whole, whole thesis around that. I think some of it we can definitely trace back to French colonialism. I think right now, I think it’s more relevant to like how it is… like Chinese people are wealthier. And even those who have been here–sorry, been in Srok Khmer/ស្រុកខ្មែរ (Cambodia)–for generations, like Chinese people have been there for generations. They still kind of get to benefit from that. Because Chinese people are coming in with all this money, you make the association of China, of Chinese people equals money, even if that may not be the case. And so even Chinese Cambodians who've been there for a long time still get to benefit from the idea that Chinese people, or at least ethnic Chinese people have more money. And I think, honestly, more money, more power, right? 

I think money is power. Money is power, and people with money control the narrative. And if they say lighter skinned folk, get to be in, you know this way, you know, so be it. And it's like, it ends up darker skinned folk become the exception, right, like, “Oh, okay, maybe we'll let this one in, because, you know, they're special”, right. I think that that tracks, like, history of colonialism– French colonialism. But I think more relevant today is definitely like Chinese development, Chinese influence,  even for those who have –who are Chinese –who have been there for a long time still benefit, I think benefit from those associations, even if they may not adhere to it, per se, so.

Describe how colorism affects your life. 

I guess I can talk to high school in particular because I think this is really interesting, and I haven't really shared this with a lot of people, but I feel like it's necessary. My own college counselor at my high school told me not to apply to Columbia because she was just like, “You're not gonna get in.” And I was like, “Why?” She's like, “Well you're Asian, but you're not Asian.” She was Black too‒that was like the worst part. I was like, “Oh, skinfolk really ain’t kinfolk.” That set a fire under me to prove her wrong, and I did, fortunately. That shit is really damaging for Khmer folk. That's not right. That was probably one of [my] worst experiences too with colorism. She knew I was Cambodian, and beyond colorism, I think there's a lot of negative associations with Cambodians, especially in Long Beach because of the 90s and all the gangs that came up. I was in sort of the after-wave of that, after all that stuff hit. People already had an association in their mind that these darker Asians were trouble, so in high school, while my close friends and my peers were fine with me, when I was in White dominant spaces and that was in AP classes, so even though my school itself was very diverse, the classes that I took did not hold that same diversity. I was like, "Where did all these White people come from?” There were a lot of East Asians in Long Beach too. The only frame of reference that White people have are like Cambodians, Vietnamese, Filipinos, so it was mostly Southeast Asian focused. I don't know what kind of stereotypes they had in their minds, but they're like, “These Asians are a little different, they're a little darker, a little different looking,” but not a lot of them right, like, you know, in a class of 30 white, like 30 kids, I would say like 25 are White, and like one Black person, two Asians and maybe two Latino kids, right. And so it was because I took AP classes or at least they saw me enough in those classes that they're like, oh she's like smart, right, compared to the general population of Cambodian kids that were there. 

But first of all, like there's a lot of intrinsically wrong things about tracking people and putting people on certain tracks and not allowing, you know, kids who want to take APs to take them or whatever. But knowing that like other Cambodian folks, weren't, you know taking it and were taking either you know regular level like standard level courses, or even honors courses, like I think reinforced in their mind that like these darker Asians, while Asian, aren't like your stereotypical East Asian, right. 

So those are like some instances of like, it was like a weird double-edged sword of like, yeah, you're like, darker, and we associate some of those negative stereotypes of like, the history of gang violence that happened in Long Beach, in particular, right. But on the other side you're one of the good ones, right? Like you're the ones who made it, right, like you did the right thing. Like, you know, and feeling that too, like why do I feel so disconnected from my peers? And I realize it wasn't anything on them, like I can't fault anyone for the way they were brought up and the choices that they made because of, you know, being in a resource-deprived neighborhood. 

You know, I had a mom that was a stay-at-home mom so she took care of me and loved me, but not a lot of folks had that, you know, not a lot of folks had… like, their parents worked for multiple jobs, you know, blue collar jobs, you know, so they didn't have, like, a mom to drive them to school, they didn't have a mom to drive them to like practices and stuff and, you know, I credit all of what I am, to, to her dedication. Recognizing that not a lot of my friends at the time could afford that same thing because they didn't have parents that could drive them or take them or support them in the way that they needed it, even though I know it was because of the hustle; they had to survive and make that money. So, you know, it's like, you have, like, you're good and you're smart and you take all the right classes but like we also know that you're probably poor and like need this, you know, you're like a charity case, in a way. Or if we let us cheat off of you, 

you'll be accepted as one of us. And I was like, you're not going to talk to me after this, and nor do I want to talk to you ever. It was also like that sort of thing. 

I mean there were Asian Americans that, you know, whose friends were only White and, you know, probably have had to deal with their internalized proximity to Whiteness right like and some of us, we've all, you know, we’ve all been there, I don't just acknowledge the times where I did want to be white or want to be with White people and to be accepted by them, but I was like, for some reason, I guess it's because of, you know, the intrinsic values that my mom did manage to instill, I like held my ground. I was like no, I don't need approval from my people. I'm doing this for me. I'm not here to prove anything or to prove anything about my race right, like you can think all you want about how you perceive other Cambodian Americans. But we're also individuals, right, like you can't just lump all of us in a monolith…

Yeah, it was interesting that I was a “good one” in their eyes but also not, because of all the other sort of negative stereotypes associated with Cambodian Americans. And with the additional context of what had happened in the 90s I think really informed a lot of what these kids viewed us, or because I'm sure their parents informed a lot of what they thought about that.

Right. So, in terms of who they get to associate with and who they get to invite birthday parties and you know all those things. So, yeah, feeling all of that, but like not having the vocabulary back then, but reflecting on it now has been really fascinating because it's just like, “oh, okay.” 

And then obviously going back home is always, you know, interesting to see because I was like, “Wow I had, I could have had so much more camaraderie with my fellow Cambodian Americans,” but I was too busy, you know, trying to get out of the ghetto, trying to make it out, that I didn't recognize all that. 

How was it living with or growing up with other Cambodians around you?

It was tough because I think I did internalize a lot of that self hatred‒not that I hated being Cambodian, I think I liked being Cambodian‒it was like, why do people associate Cambodian Americans with being gangbangers, or teen pregnancy, or all those negative stereotypes? At the time I really bought into the model minority myth. I really bought into being one of the good ones, to prove that not every Cambodian American can end up like this. That was unfortunately a very toxic mindset that I was in, in reflection. So, that was one thing and that's why I felt very disconnected from the community at large because I was like, “Man, all these gangbangers, don't they have anything better to do? I would never do that,” not realizing all of the things that have led them to those decisions.

That was very painful for me to acknowledge, and I'm still working through and still undoing a lot of that hatred. Even my mom, she is also very classist; she was a Phnom Penh girl, like grew up in Phnom Penh. Even though she was darker in her youth, she has lighter skin, and my grandpa worked for her on her side, so her dad worked for the American Embassy so you know they were pretty well-off in Srok Khmer/ស្រុកខ្មែរ (Cambodia), like if the Khmer Rouge never happened, like I can imagine our family being like, pretty like doing pretty well in Srok Khmer/ស្រុកខ្មែរ (Cambodia), but obviously everything went into a loop because of that. So she also has this, even though we were pretty poor growing up, she still held on to like those notions of class like even back from like back in the day. She's still kind of merl ngeay/មើលងាយ (look down upon) the people who did live in Long Beach because you know, because of the genocide killing off, essentially the educated class you had, you know, a population of farmers and laborers and people who were skilled workers that came over, or part of the diaspora, for the most part right. There are obviously people who were educated or in other fields that came earlier, sometimes, because they knew what was coming, or later if they managed to survive and pass as as a farm worker, but for the most part right like she did merl ngeay/មើលងាយ (look down upon) and that like, you know, like these people were just farmers and had no education, no this, no that. So a lot of that was merl ngeay/មើលងាយ (look down upon) in other people, not realizing like they are a product of their circumstances. So I think I had to unlearn a lot of that once I was far away from my community and did research on my own culture and history and all that context, and the US government, and all that playing into why I felt the way I felt and purposely trying to unlearn that. Trying to reconnect with, you know, other Cambodian Americans across different generations, like older folks and even younger folks like you guys, so. 

Yeah, thank you for sharing. What do you think contributes the most to your attitude towards your skin color? 

Family, for sure. I'm very fortunate that I was never shamed for it, at least within my immediate family and those were the people I was most around. I can see it being pretty damaging if it wasn't for that self-love, and honestly they also did a good job of sheltering. They sheltered me in a way that I still… it’s mind blowing because I go back home I'm like, “Yo, this is the ghetto,” but back then, I didn't know it was the ghetto because my parents had built this like cocoon around me, where I was mostly with my grandparents, mom, dad, no sister. That's all I knew. And that's all I had. So, yeah, I would say family. Because otherwise, I wouldn't be who I am. 

I think it's because we didn't have a lot of extended family because I noticed that for the folks that do say that, they have a bigger family. Like aunties, uncles, and they're a judgy as hell, right? I feel like those influences too, kind of factor into that. Maybe their mom may not have said something, but maybe that auntie that they see every weekend does, you know. So I think because I had like a very small family here in the US and didn't really have any extended family that, and, fortunately for some reason they didn't conform to that notion. [So] I didn't feel that as much, and no one would dare say anything in front of me, even if like Cambodian– like, the friends that we did associate with would never say anything about my skin tone or color or anything like that, in front of my mom because she would –oh shoot, she was small but very fierce and very protective, so… I understand that it's such a unique case too, because my sister also just loves her skin and is so proud of it. Yeah, and unfortunately it's not a regular thing in the community.

What kind of jobs, largely, do you see people who look like you working in Cambodia? 

I see like garment workers, like the ones that like going to the factories. I see a lot of like service workers, like in restaurants. Oh, there's even a nuance to restaurants, so the nicer restaurants, their staff would actually be a little lighter skinned so maybe like me. But then you go to like more I would say like, you know, like restaurants that are either frequented by like tourists or like other types of higher-tier restaurants – I would say very light-skin, me or Chinese, me or my skin or lighter. And then you have like your mid-tier restaurants where it's like, you know, rich Cambodian folk can access it, if they want to, and, you know, tourists can access it there's like, I would say darker folks for sure. And then obviously, your working class, eating in a hole-in-the-wall kind of restaurants are darker skin. But like, I noticed, even within that mid tier (that's mostly where I would eat because my stomach is so weak) I noticed the workers were darker than me and even in the higher-end restaurants. They were lighter. Sometimes they were dark like the men – the men are always dark right!

That's another thing! Even [in] the restaurants! The men are always dark, or my color or whatever, but the women, it's always the women. The shade variation in the women is what varies a lot, from what I see in the restaurants and whatnot. Being lighter skinned… I do see bank tellers, and that's considered like a really good, secure job. What else…I don't know… mall workers? My mom loves going to the mall; she just loves going for AC more than anything, or yeah, like mall workers, you know, not so much exposed to the sun. But, you know, still, still selling out their handicrafts and stuff. 

What about for people who are much darker than you? So, what kind of jobs do you largely see them working in Cambodia? 

Yeah, I'm trying to think back. I'm mostly in those like taub/តូប (stalls), like in the central markets – the more casual markets, as opposed to being inside of a mall. A lot of restaurant work, and it varies. Yeah, a lot of a lot of restaurant work, actually because a lot of them probably come from the countryside. 

What kind of jobs do you see Cambodians who are much lighter than you are working in Cambodia?

Anything that's facing, like very customer-facing. Even within a restaurant, so some of the waiters and even the cooks can be darker-skinned, but the maître-d’, or the hostess or whatever tends to be lighter-skinned. They always put a lighter skinned person in front of you. Yeah, like bank tellers, like people who do business or transactional work. I know this because my mom bought a house there, and she would always go to the banks and stuff and deal with that type of people, and I noticed those people are always lighter-skinned.

Yeah, I would say white collar jobs, you know, anytime I'm passing by like a really nice glass building, it would be lighter-skinned folk. I even went into like one of those high end malls, that was really morbidly curious, and the folks that were working in there were light-skinned and actually some of them could speak Mandarin because they knew Chinese folk would come and buy expensive designer stuff there, so it was really fascinating to see because I just wanted to see what it looks like. Yeah, anything that's very forward facing I would see lighter-skinned folks; anyone who is like in the background or… would tend to be darker folk.

How do you think your life would be different if you were much lighter, had different features, like maybe a smaller skinny nose, if you had super straight hair?

I think if I was someone who was more East Asian-passing, I think based on what your question is, it would be, I think weird, because I because my mom didn't prize those sort of features. Actually, she would make fun of my poor sister for the longest time because she came out really small, like she had smaller eyes. But then when she got older it went into double lids, but like I was like “Ma, that's so mean!” [She would be] like “ew, kon chen kon chen/ កូនចិន, កូនចិន (Chinese child, Chinese child)!” But then, she's dark, so it’s like, okay, well...

So I don't know, maybe, [it would be like] “you're not really that Khmer,” maybe. Like maybe not feeling as connected to being Khmer if my features weren’t so Khmer. Yeah, just because I have such a weird dynamic; I'm sure that's very different from like other families who probably would prize that. 

So family-wise, they would never make me feel bad about it [being lighter-skinned], they would probably tease me… and that can also be problematic in ways, but I can see myself feeling a little self-conscious around like my identity as being Khmer, because if I didn't have those features that are normally associated with Khmer people, if I had the straight hair. But, you know, in some spaces I could conform because like, “Oh you have that nice straight hair instead” – in Srok Khmer/ស្រុកខ្មែរ (Cambodia) right, when people think you're so high class because you have straight hair. 

But I would say in college, because I did operate mostly in like Asian American spaces, because that was like, I think I came into my awakening through Asian American activism, but unfortunately, obviously, with Asian American activism it's very East Asian-dominated. So, I probably felt like I could have fit into those circles a little better… because they were, you know… even though East Asians have flat noses, they are still smaller and less broad than ours in some instances, so. But I mean, by that point I had a pretty good sense of self and was pretty confident in who I was, so I wasn't that I didn't feel that bad. I was self-conscious because people can spot me in a crowd pretty easily. “Oh, there’s Sam!” 

Oh, one thing I didn't like though, I’m just now recognizing, because I was one of the few darker Asians, I would get mistaken for other darker Asians, like with this Filipino girl that was like two years older than me. I was like, first of all, we're not in the same class. Second of all, she had such distinct features that were so different from mine. Just because we were tan… and East Asians thought that was like, appropriate or funny. I was like, that's kind of fucked up, like I was – sorry, excuse my French, sorry – it's because my friends – I was like, you guys are being really…  those people are no longer in my life, fortunately, but back then it was like, “Oh, I thought you were Nina,” and I was like, “Why? Because we're both dark and Asian?” That was the name of the Filipino girl. And I was like [makes a facial expression]. So maybe in those spaces I could have passed and now and again and not have gotten as much attention.

But I feel like, because I was like a brown Asian girl operating in those spaces, I felt like the spotlight was a little bit on me, like people were watching every move, and, you know, whether or not trying to associate my success or failure, according to it [my skin color]. So I felt like I had to be very perfect in those social circles, because any false move, any wrongdoing could be like, “Oh!” I don't know whether or not that was true, that was what I was perceiving. So I think if I was one of those Thai people or Vietnamese people who were, you know, I didn't know were Thai or Vietnamese until I talked to them, right like, [asking] where are you from, or like where's your family from? And it's different between Asians because we're just trying to like, you know, gauge each other as opposed to white people just being rude about it, you know. They’d be like “Oh, I’m Vietnamese.” “Oh, I didn’t know, that's cool.” I wouldn't have known just from looking at you, and they were kind of like more under the radar. I felt like those people operated in ways… I felt like they had sort of like a cover, or like they could operate and not have to worry too much about sticking out, versus like when I was, you know, at social events, or even at parties, or even in academic settings, it felt like, even within the Asian crowd, I was like still sticking out. And it was interesting. And I think if I had different features, different skin, I would have blended in easier and may have had an easier time in college. I would say it was rough because of those instances. 

And also there's definitely some nuances too, like, the relationship I have with my husband because he's Chinese, … even though other people, like my Black friends or like Latinx friends are like “You're both Asian,” like, what's the problem? There was still an underlying sort of dynamic that people perceived, and because I was darker than he was and it's like, “Wow,” you know, or even when we go to Asia together, they think like “Oh, did he marry his maid?” I'm like, “Oh, do they know that we're American?” 

Yeah, it's wild. So like, even, though, you know, I love him dearly, and even through our meeting and the way we've navigated through life… like, we love Asia and I love going, but every time I go with him, I have to prove my Americanness or like, you know, insinuate that we are on an equal playing field, like we both went to Columbia, or like we are both first-gen immigrants. Like, I am no less than him because of my skin color, but it's so, like, if I was the same person but met my husband, how we would be perceived when we go to Asia, or even operate in places that don't have a lot of people of color, they’re like “Oh, that’s that's a strange combo,” you know. So, yeah,  I feel like those are some parts of my life that would definitely be affected if I had different features, or a different skin color.

How would you say your relationship with members of the opposite gender would be different?

Less fetishization, I feel like… I didn't know that at the time, but reflecting back. [There were] definitely people who were like “Ooh, she's darker, but Asian.” [There was] definitely some fetishization in the way people viewed me as a romantic partner. But on the flip side, I felt like a lot of…. I personally am attracted to like Asian men in general, like all types of Asian men, but I noticed when I was dating, a lot of East Asian men actually didn't think I was attractive or didn't find me as a potential partner, and I didn't like them because they were Asian necessarily, I just liked them because I liked them. And so it was, it was interesting that if I would eventually get like friendzoned or something, and then there would be a girlfriend and their girlfriend would be East Asian, and I would be like “Oh, of course! You know, of course she's Chinese or Korean, he's never gonna date someone like me, right?” 

So, there's like, I'm fetishized by certain people, like White men, particularly, some Black men, right, because of the hair. I feel like the hair is another thing, like another layer to that, I don't know. But fetishized by like I would say White, Black, maybe Latinx men, because I'm still lighter but not dark. And then, but still not seen as a viable option within the community of – general Asian community – because I am darker. In terms of my experiences with Cambodian men, I don't think there was ever any of that instance because, I don't know, a baseline, understanding or experience? I'm sure there are nuances, but not… not that I remember. But definitely, it's weird being fetishized by certain races, but not seen as a potential partner just because of the way I looked, and, you know, if I looked a certain way would I have been a potential partner for them? You know, that person, so you know. 

Have you ever thought about your future spouse, obviously before you got married, have you ever wanted them to be lighter or darker than you? 

I ideally wanted them to be around my same skin color initially just because, I don't know, I didn't feel like I associated positive or negative traits with skin color, fortunately. Not to say like I didn't have any anti-Blackness in me that I'm unlearning and still, but… I did, avoid dating or potentially securing someone who was darker as a potential partner and I own up to that too. Because of you know, my mom was like “You're nice and dark, like sraem/ស្រអែម (tan) but you're not dark dark, you're not khmao khmao/ខ្មៅខ្មៅ (black, black). Like you’re khmao/ខ្មៅ(black), but you're not like, you know.” So I'm sure that manifested in my Khmer view of who could be my partner. Like I could date someone maybe my color, or maybe a little darker, but like Black people? I don't think my mom would have been okay with that. 

She was, I mean this is a whole nother thing, she wasn't okay with Aaron because her idea of Chinese, like she just doesn't like Chinese, like the idea that we're mixed with Chinese either. So, it was, you know, very particular, but I would say that was where I was. I was very attracted to Filipino guys because they were kind of, some of them were, pretty much my color or had the features, like more westernized features, like where it's like, like the pointier nose, especially if they were like Spanish-mixed. The bigger eyes.

But, yeah, that was kind of like my preference, and I actually wasn't really that attracted to the Cambodian men in my life because they were a lot darker, or didn't fit like, “Oh I want a guy taller than me” and most Cambodian guys I knew were my height or a little bit taller. So, those are kind of what I thought through in terms of my dating preference. I did like East Asians. I think I had a K-pop phase, in early 2008, 2009, so I was really into East Asian boys at some point. So I was like, I'm okay with him [being] lighter if he looks like a K-pop star! But never White. I don't know why. I guess because I was so severely fetishized by White guys that I was almost turned off by it. I was almost afraid of them because I was like “you're never gonna see me as a person,” and you're just going to treat me as this experiment or a phase. At least with the ones that I've had interactions with. And so, I never saw myself with a White person; it was always going to be someone Asian, I just didn't know where. But I also couldn't really see myself with a Cambodian man, either. So it was like, Asian, but that was like, you know… so that was my dating preference before I met my husband, so.

Would you want your children to be lighter or darker than you? Also before you answer there’s the obvious answer to this, like “I don't care, I love my child,” but it's also important to acknowledge that in our society, children who are darker-skinned, they go through much more struggles than someone who is lighter.

Yeah. I think because of the positive sort of reinforcement my parents gave, or my mom, specifically, gave (my dad was sort of ambivalent, like “I don’t care, anything”). But my mom…  you know, I would just want them to be whatever skin color, as long as they’re comfortable. I think if they came out light, I want them to be okay with it. If they came out dark, I also want them to be okay with it, but I would be like, “Listen, there are some issues with being this color, and not that you are the issue, society is the issue.” So I really actually “don't care,” I'm more worried about how they're going to be perceived. Like if they're lighter, like, is my mom gonna be like, oh, like, you know, like an Asian like a Chinese baby? Or in society… it’s like oh, a lighter skinned baby… but then if they're darker, understanding all the nuances around [it], you know, the difficulties that they would face if they were darker skinned.

So, I know I would love them and kind of convey and perpetuate the love that my mom gave me growing up and that built my self confidence to love the skin that I'm in. I guess I would just be worried about how other people would perceive, but I know I would be just as fierce as my mom in protecting them either way – like you can't even imply anything about her skin, because you know where I stand. Like people knew where she stood in that, and that was something that you didn't suggest. So like, even that hair suggestion was so left-field because it was like relatives that didn't know us that well, and, you know, didn't spend time with us so they thought that it would be okay to suggest, and she was like, “no.” And then, never again was I ever pulled into any of those schemes, of sorts. So, yeah, I think, especially, I'm learning my anti-Blackness, I would say, as of now, like darker or lighter. I'm just more concerned about how they're going to be perceived in greater society. And that's a real fear for people who have mixed children, who have children like Cambodian Americans who have children who mixed Black face a lot of discrimination even within the community, versus like Cambodia women who have white partners who are mixed white and they are are light or even white-passing. Like they are praised and loved by the community, and it's so hurtful that that determinant really factors into how people perceive you, regardless of what the parent thinks of the child. 

How do you think your life would be different if both your parents were very, very white Cambodian so like Chinese, like Chinese Cambodian, East Asian or just much lighter skin? 

I think back to this time when I was in middle school,  there was this girl who was, I thought by all accounts just Chinese, you know, very pale, straight hair, whatever, whatever – only to find out, maybe towards the end of my middle school to realize that she's actually Chinese Cambodian, and she made such great lengths to hide that. And it was sad because I was like why do you feel like you need to align yourself to being Chinese when you're actually Chinese Cambodian? You don't even speak Mandarin, or Cantonese or whatever. You speak Khmer. So I feel like I would have probably been that girl right. I would have had these privileges, but I think I would have had more internalized, like more explicit internalized self hatred of Cambodian-ness because I don't physically relate, in a way, but still culturally have some connection to it.

I do think about this a lot because I've seen not just her but a couple of other instances of Chinese Cambodians who just disregard their Cambodian-ness and try to adhere to what it means to be Chinese.

I think some parts of life would be a lot easier but I think even on the outset of it being easier to navigate through even white spaces–some East Asians can navigate certain White spaces pretty well, depending [on] if they're willing to put that aside–I can't imagine having to deal with those two layers of disregarding your Cambodianness because of you physically look like as well as trying to win proximity to whiteness. So I think, while I would go through life easier. I would definitely hate myself more, and I would ignore some of the struggles that are coming to a head now. 

Yeah, in terms of where we live too, I think she lived in a pretty good neighborhood too compared to where my parents currently reside. So, a lot of–I would have lived a more privileged life, I maybe would have never been self-critical of my anti-Blackness, I would have never been critical of how I benefit in certain ways and know I also am oppressed in certain ways. I think that part would have come either much later in life, or it would be much more jarring, like I've experienced racism and colorism in a way that will make me relate to the struggle, like okay, I understand how you feel when you're being profiled. I will never understand what it feels like to be profiled by police by race in that manner, of course, but I do understand what it feels like to be profiled solely based on your appearance, solely by the color of your skin. And yes, there's like, you know, hate against East Asians now because of covid, but prior to covid, that wasn't a–I would say not really as prevalent. Like I would have gone through life pretty happily and sat in my ivory tower while the world burned at my feet. And I think I really do believe that because I see it and that's what kills me most is when I see fellow Cambodian Americans or even East Asians that feel like they don't have the same as fight because they can continue benefiting from this system solely because of the way they look because if they were any darker, they would have already felt sort of the system pushing back on them, they would have felt, you know, something's not right, something's not sitting.

If you could change anything in your life, what would you change or what would you do?

This is something that I think a lot of immigrants feel guilt around is like not being able to make the money to like move their parents out or take care of them in a way that normally Asian children would do in Asia or, you know, that type of stuff. I do carry that guilt, being far away from them, physically as well as still figuring out myself. Like I have the privilege to figure myself out right and figure out what I want to do as opposed to having to just put my head down and work, and, you know, the people that do that I respect that too.

So I don't know. I would change the fact that I had to stop putting money first, and you know I hate that because it's like there's so much layer to it. Like if I didn't have money to worry about, I could have come to this conclusion of being a lawyer maybe sooner. But then again, it would have informed my decisions as to why I'm so passionate about using law or trying to use it to dismantle systems. But I know that if I hadn't been so caught up about making money and being secure, I would have had time to actually reflect on what it is that is important to me and maybe come to that sooner. On the flipside, it could have further entrenched me to chase money even harder <laughs>.

I think right now, probably being at home, being in California. I think covid has taught me, as much as I love living in New York or being close to New York and enjoying the city, it's made me think about what's important and what's important to me. And I think family is definitely becoming more important, especially now as I get older. So ideally, if I could snap my fingers now, I would be back home in California doing maybe law school there. I chose not to do it now just because…I don't know, I'm afraid to go back home right now just because I still feel like I need some more time on the East Coast. That way when I move back to California, it’ll be like permanent <chuckles>. There's no going back and forth like I still love New York and I still want to be here for a little bit longer, but I also like I miss home and a lot of my identity and upbringing was so tied to growing up in California with such a Cambodian American community. So, those are probably like the two things I would change.

Is there anything you would like to add or say, anything you remembered, or also just in general because knowing that this is going to be on a public website, is there anything you'd like to say to the audience reading or the Cambodian community in general?

I think it's good that our younger generation is really critical of this and have started these conversations ‘cause I think they're so important and it's so related to the traumas that our previous generations are facing and dealing with. I would urge everyone to kind of look into their anti-Blackness because that is related to colorism like why don't you want to be this color? It’s because being this color is associated with being Black and we already know in this country, being Black is not a good thing in the eyes of law enforcement, in the criminal legal system, you know, whatever. So, that is one of the biggest things is [that] undoing anti-Blackness will help undo colorism because they are linked to so many layers of privilege and even class and economics, all that stuff. 

Another thing is that colorism is also linked to White proximity. I, for some reason, whatever that may be, I think Cambodian Americans feel that they're closer to White people than they are to Black people, and brown is much closer to black than it is to white. And someone said that actually, I can't even credit that quote. I saw it somewhere and it really like run trails like, “Oh my god, yes that's like a very simple way of putting it to people who are trying to undo their anti-Blackness and wanting to be White.” Brown is much closer to black and in this space of White supremacy that we don't benefit from trying to be White or trying to be lighter or trying to adhere to these standards because ultimately we're always going to be a third in that way no matter what you do. And, it's only a matter of time for when they come for you <laughs>. That’s another thing. 

So, I urge people to think–especially about the White proximity, I think anti-Blackness can be harder for people to get to because it requires a lot more work, I think. But I think undoing White proximity is a little bit easier just because it's like, “why do I want to fit in with White people? Why are all my friends White? Why am I the only person of color in the room? Am I a token? Why am I being tokenized or why do White people find it okay to make racist jokes in front of me?” You know, that type of thing. I think those are some of the conversations I've seen kind of surface in the Cambodian American community, and I think are so intrinsically linked to colorism because of the example I mentioned of when you have a Khmer baby who’s half Black or treated a certain way versus a Khmer baby who's half White is treated in a certain way. And I think the only way to undo colorism of itself is to address both anti-Blackness and the fact that we want to be White first or have the privileges of what it means to be White.

So those are my comments on colorism and what I think the community needs to do moving forward whether it be within ourselves, like we're always undoing and learning. But, I think the community at large needs to also facilitate these kinds of conversations, especially now that we have the language like we didn't know what anti-Blackness or White privilege or White supremacy, all of those things until I would say pretty recently. So, now that we have that vocabulary and that sort of nuanced ideas and concepts and frameworks that we can start undoing the harm and then really start healing.