Soapy, 37

Minneapolis, Minnesota | April 3rd, 2021

Date of interview: July 26th, 2020

I was born in Khao-I-Dang, and I think that's either on the border of Thailand and Cambodia, so I'm not quite sure what part I was born in, but in that refugee camp.

When did you come to the US?

I was born in 1982, by 1983 was when the refugee papers showed that my family was allowed to come to the United States. It was 1983 when we got the papers, but we settled in Texas first, and that's when my mom met my stepdad, who was a shrimper down in Texas. Then he moved us up to Minnesota around 1985.

Did you have a lot of Cambodian classmates in St Paul?

Yeah, it’s a pretty good sized amount; nothing compared to how California is. I had five or six at the most; nothing more than that. We all knew each other. It was definitely hard. 

[...]

I think with the teasing from the family and how they put you down, it goes down all the way to the self esteem because they'll tell you, “Well you have to go to college‒Oh well, you're dark, you're so dark; you're not going to succeed in college, so why even waste your time to go to school. You're not going to amount to anything anyways.” So then, we don't go to school, our self esteem is so low, we don't believe in ourselves, so we just give up at the end and then they wonder why there's no dark skinned people in school or graduating high school. That's my history in school.

My support system was not my family, my support system was actually other Black people. That's the only way that I survived in school. It was not other Cambodian people or my family. I had to look outside of my race, I had to look outside my skin color and everything to get that support. I didn't graduate out of high school due to mental illness. Mental illness that’s like generational trauma during the Pol Pot regime and everything like that. So, I had to deal with that, plus I had to deal with colorism, and so I had to deal with the family trauma of all that. So layering all that put together, going through therapy, and having a family that has no type of understanding of any of that. Then having pushed myself to now go to college, and still have to deal with it because now I have two children who are two different skin colors‒one who has my color, and one has her light-skinned father's color. Now it's, “Oh, me oun muoy nuh sach saw doich pa vie haoy muoy nih khmao doich mai vie /មិអូនមួយនោះសាច់សដូចប៉ាវាហើយមួយនេះខ្មៅដូចមែ៉វា (that one’s light skin like her father, and this one’s dark like her mom).” And now it's brought down to my daughters, and now I'm pissed. Yeah, it was fine with me, but now they cannot do it to my children.

[Growing up,] my brother-in-law called me the N-word. He’ll just call me, “‘Ey little N-word! Hey little N-word!” and I was the one that was dubbed me khmao/មិខ្មៅ (black girl). Then we had this girl growing up in my neighborhood who's my age, her name was me khmao/មិខ្មៅ (black girl) also. I mean I've known a lot of me khmao/មិខ្មៅ (black girl)s growing up. There was always one in the family. I don’t know if it’s derogatory or not, but there were times when if I was mean, they were like, “Mow pi sach vie khmao encheng baan vie kach doch encheng ruok khmao haoy sach khmao akrok dol hay/ម៉ោពីវាខ្មៅអញ្ចឹងបានវាកាចដូចអញ្ចឹង ឬកខ្មៅសាច់ខ្មៅអាក្រក់ដល់ហើយ” (it’s because she’s black, that’s why she’s angry like that, black attitude, and skin black, so ugly). Then if I were to date Black men, they would make it even worse. They would just say, “Oh well, that's all she could get anyway, so that's what she's gonna go for.” 

The marriage thing‒they would pair you up with their children, “Oh, I don't want my son marrying that daughter of yours,” or not giving this daughter to your son and stuff like that, “she's too dark, we want the light-skinned daughters.” My two younger sisters are half Chinese, so of course, they're always the one to talk about getting married with those rich Chinese boys and stuff like that. 

What is your ethnicity? We know that a lot of Cambodians just refer to themselves as Khmer, even though they may be Chinese, Vietnamese, part Chinese, part Lao, part Thai, etc.

Yeah, but since I don't know who my biological father is, I was told by my aunt that he had that crinkly hair texture, but that he was a Thai soldier and he was dark skinned also. Those were just rumors, so I can't really go by that, but my mom had a Cambodian Father. I also did a DNA 23andme test: mostly Khmer but I had Thai, Vietnamese in me, but it just came mostly Khmer. 

How connected do you feel to Khmer culture?

It took a while. I think it wasn't until my early 30s was when I started reconnecting again. I grew up hating it because of the trauma that I had to live with because of my mom's mental illness. I would say it was because of the love of gambling. The neighborhood we lived in that had other Cambodians who loved gambling and drinking‒I didn't like it. I didn't like the colorism either. It wasn't a good environment, I mean, it was a product of just living in poverty, and so I wanted to escape it. I didn't want to own up. I just didn't want to relate to; it was embarrassing for me. So, it wasn't until my 30s I started to appreciate it again. When social media started blowing up or I could see that there are good Cambodian people out there and that we did have similar struggles, but not everyone was like the people that I grew up with, that everyone has their own trauma but there are good Cambodians out there. So, early 30s I would say was when I started appreciating it more.

There were a lot of moments where, “Man, I wish I didn't have to go eat dinner with my family right now because they're gonna say I'm fat, ugly, or I need to eat more.”

How do you feel about her facial features and this can include your nose, your lips, your eyes Your face shape, etc.?

Growing up, my nose was a part that they made fun of all the time. They have this trick of telling me when you're in the shower, you're supposed to pull up your nose, and pull it and pull it every morning and when you're washing your nose pull it out, so you can get the long European nose because the nose I have, it was too stubby, short and ugly. That was something that bothered me for a long while, but it no longer bothers me. In my 20s when I knew I could get boyfriends and no one complained about my nose, I was okay with it after a while, but I just settled with like, “Okay, Cambodians are crazy.” I just didn't understand it after that I was like, “Okay, it's not a problem with me, it's a problem with people. Asian people who want European noses.” I love my eyes. I do have a problem with my eyelids because when I do makeup, it doesn't show up because my eyelids are so puffy that it covers the bottom portion of my eyelids. I either have to close my eyes to show all of the colors I did have my eyelids. Sometimes I'm bothered by the darkness of my lips because my mom used to call it warm lips because they were dark, but then seventh grade people would tell me, “You're so lucky you have a color to your lips; it already looks like you have lipstick on.” It was like outside people would tell me I'm beautiful, but my inner family would just tell me I'm ugly or certain facial features were just not perfect, but I feel okay with them now. I just learned to adjust to my beauty now. But growing up, it was hard.

How would you describe your skin color?

I always describe it as caramel, but I have like five shades of me. My chest and my stomach all like light caramel, my arms are chocolate, and my legs are like beige. My face, I would say it could change; I'll go in the sun, I'll be Blackberry. Then during the wintertime, it would be like a light pale beige.

How do other Cambodians describe your skin color?

Other Cambodians don't say much about my color. My friend in New York, she's like, “I like your brown skin, Soapy.” But growing up, I had a female friend. We were like, eight, nine, or ten years old. I think she had really a bad low self esteem about herself because she would put her arm next to mine and compared to my arm. She's like, “let's see who's darker,” and she would go put on a long sleeve shirt after she would find out she was darker than me; she would go put on a shirt. To even make it worse, sometimes she would make me come out in the sun so I would get as dark as her.

Have you ever been called by other Cambodians like sraem/ស្រអែម (tan), khmao/ខ្មៅ (black), or srey mao/ស្រីម៉ៅ (dark girl)?

Yep, I had a lot of elders that did. The sraem/ស្រអែម (tan) ones were the ones that were nice.

Those are from the nice Cambodian ladies that did not degrade me for my skin color. It’s like, “You know, she’s dark, but she’s sraem/ស្រអែម (tan) dark. She's not like khmao/ខ្មៅ (black) dark. She’s sraem/ស្រអែម (tan), she's pretty. She's pretty-dark, she's not ugly-dark.”

How do you feel about your skin color?

Growing up, I was hurt a lot. I didn't hate my skin color, but I didn't understand why the adults that were supposed to love me used it as a tool to make me try to hate myself. ‘Cause I knew I didn't hate myself because of my skin color, but I knew the people in my life were trying to make it something that I should be ashamed of. For example, “Oh well, because of her darkness, she's gonna date Black men which is all she's going to get anyways.” Like, there's nothing wrong with Black men, there's nothing wrong with having to date Black men anyway, so that's not a diss to me. Or say, “Well, she’s dark, she's not going to get anywhere in life. So, I don't know why she even tries to excel in classes or anything.” So growing up, it was hurtful because they tried to match it up with my intelligence or my beauty, and things like that. I think that's where I'm blessed because I'm in the American culture that I'm not seen as ugly in my skin tone, and I've had to learn that. I've had to get outside perspectives on my skin color. Traveling to Australia, New Zealand, and seeing the minority people who are Polynesian people, and just seeing them all so beautiful and being indigenous really helped me just be happy with my skin color. Seeing the skin color of my daughter who's half Puerto Rican, and then visiting Puerto Rico seeing people who are my skin color, solidifies that even more every day. The cherry on top is when my Chinese sisters go to the lake and try to get my skin color. I think the best part is that the ones that were told were beautiful, are trying to adjust their skin color to be my skin color. That really is the cherry on top.

Have you ever done anything to change your skin color like done lighter makeup, foundation, or use whitening creams, bleaches, etc.?

I've never tried to completely lighten all parts of my skin, like try to be a totally different tone. But, there are parts of my neck or the corners of my[self]: those parts I have tried to lighten it to try to have an even tone all over my body and skin.

Would you say that you're the lightest, darkest, or the same tone within your family?

My brother is darker than me and he's the one that makes fun of my skin color the most. It's okay for him to be darker than me and call me that because he's a man.

What about your mother? Is she the same color as you?

Yeah, she's about the same skin color as me. Which is why when I call them out on it, I'm like, “But, you're darker than me today.” Sometimes she'll go out in the sun like, “Mom, but you're darker than me today. Why are you calling me khmao/មិខ្មៅ (black)? Well, how about Hun, he's darker than me. He's a car mechanic out in the sun, you can even probably just call him the Black guy right now.” They just enjoy calling me the dark one, even though they could be darker than me at that moment. And my older sister, she's lighter than me but she's still a dark Cambodian. She's lighter, but she has a bigger butt so they concentrate on her figure rather than her skin color. 

I actually buy makeup ingredients and stuff that actually highlights my brown. I'll buy like Fenty sparkling bronzers to accentuate my brown skin now. I'm going for all the Black-owned businesses, and buying all the Black people make up and just using it.

Given the entire Cambodian population, where would you say your skin color fits? 

I follow a few celebrities, not celebrities I know very well but they seem to be like big celebrities, on Instagram, and they are extremely white. They also market or sell skin lightening products on Instagram. I just can't believe how it's being marketed to be lighter, and then the fact that there's not a lot of dark skinned Cambodians that are celebrities. I hate that, and I'm perusing through all of these. Even the pageants‒the pageants don't even have dark skinned Cambodians in the running. I'm like, “This is all a lie. This is all just an aesthetic. Why are you guys hiding all the dark skinned Cambodians? Where are they? I know they exist.” I haven't gone to Cambodia, but for some reason there's this perception that all Cambodians are light skinned. At least on Instagram for me, they're all light skinned for some reason and they're all trying to sell you skin whitening products.

On that scale, I feel like if I were to go, I would probably be one of the darker Cambodians in Cambodia. I'd probably be looked at as a commoner, I'd probably be one selling the vegetables in the tent, I would not be looked at as one of the rich Cambodians walking on the street.

Do you feel represented? Do you see people who look like you in Cambodian media?

No, not at all. Growing up there were a few, but they were the comedians, and not even the females. There were the comedy men. I feel like he was a midget or the funny one, who was skinny. I found my skin color in the male comedy group, but as for women, they're always white as ghosts. So no, never did, never will. Oh, in Keo Nama, that was a Thai movie, but that was the ugly part of her. When she transformed, she transformed into a light skinned lady. Never saw anyone that looked like me ever; even the singers nowadays are all still light skinned them to me, and even when they sing about sraem/ស្រអែម (tan), khmao/ខ្មៅ (black), she is nowhere near my khmao/ខ្មៅ (black) color. She's still some type of light skinned person, or even if she was dark skinned, her makeup would still be lighter than her skin.

Let's say one day you are to be casted in Cambodia media. So, you are placed by Cambodian producers, any form of media. What role would you be casted as? Not what role you would want to play. What would your occupation be, what would you be doing, what would you be wearing, what would your lines be like?

I would probably be the lady selling the babaw kreung/បបរគ្រឿង (rice porridge) at the food stalls as the side person selling the food for you.

Why is it or why do you think that these elite spaces in Cambodia are significantly lighter?

I think because Cambodians have this thing that appreciates European beauty‒not just European beauty, but Korean beauty and Chinese beauty. I think we look up to Chinese beauty and Korean beauty, and we start hating ourselves. Or, we see that Chinese people have money, Korean people have money, we see their beauty standards, and we want that for ourselves. We don't appreciate [Cambodians’ dark skin color] and see that as a good thing, [or] our farming. Staying out in the farms [and] getting dark, is not a beautiful thing. You’re poor, you’re a farmer, where actually [being at home, out of the sun], just collecting money is what is [preferable]. 

Describe how colorism affects your life.

I get followed in the stores, especially makeup stores, I get followed all the time. I could be in the back of a corner store and I'll get like two, three, four customer service asking me if I need help with something. I get followed a lot. Now it affects my daughters. It bothers me within my family. So I have to point out to my daughter, “[If] any of our family members point out your skin color, one lighter, one darker color, tell them to shut up.” My family today, they'll tell me “wear a hat.” My cousin was out on the boat with us, she's a newer immigrant and she's sitting under the umbrella while we're out on a boat, and she asked me if I want to go sit under the umbrella with her. That bothers me, but I have to understand where she's coming from, but she's slightly darker than me. I'm just like, no, why are you so afraid of the sun? Just take in some vitamin D. 

It hasn't bothered me as much anymore, but if my family does anything to my daughters, it brings back that hurt because as a child, I felt that pain.

“It hasn't bothered me as much anymore, but if my family does anything to my daughters, it brings back that hurt because as a child, I felt that pain.”

Would you say that, these stereotypes of people being darker, for example, maybe lazier, maybe not as smart, maybe poorer, not as lucky, not as valuable, etc. How have those things impacted your life?

Along with my mental illness, I think with the teasing‒from a very young age, saying that you're dark, you'll never amount to anything. “Why are you even trying to read that book? You're not going to get anywhere in life,” definitely had a huge impact. Then gaslighting, saying, “Oh well, you know, we said all those things so you push harder in school. We said it in a playful way, you know, it's your fault that you didn't see that we just said it in a playful way. Whatever way you took it, that's your own fault.” But yeah, it definitely does, and I make it a point to this day to never say anything to my daughters about anything with their looks, or self esteem, nothing about their skin color because it shouldn't matter. Because I know how it affected me as a child. Sitting there doing math at school, and the voice in your head and it's your mom or your dad saying you're not good enough because you're dark, you're not smart enough because you're dark, you're not going to get anywhere in your life because you’re dark. I can say that it does affect a lot more aspects in your life.

What do you think contributes the most to your attitude about your skin color? 

Negatively was more mostly family. Positively was media. I felt beautiful through the lens of Black people's eyes. When I watched BET music videos, I felt very beautiful. How I would copy Black culture and style, and clothing, I felt very beautiful in the world. So growing up, I always hung out with Black people because that's where I felt the most accepted. Growing up now with my husband, he's always trying to tan to get to my skin color, so I feel beautiful now because everyone’s trying to attain my skin color as of this moment. I walked out and there's people just asking me, “Where are you going tanning? How'd you get that color?” I live in Minnesota so there's a lot of White people who go out to the lake and tan these days, and I get a lot of comments waiting in line at the grocery store asking me how I get my skin color.

What about Cambodians who are darker than you? 

The tuk-tuk drivers, or the lady who sells prahok, or sells the dried fish on the side of the street because she has to sit in the sun all day long.

What about people who were lighter than you, what kind of jobs are they working?

They would either be students at the university or working as a flight attendant.

Imagine a world where you were much lighter, you were the ideal Cambodian woman, smaller pointy nose, super silky straight hair, just very white. How do you think your life would be different? How would your relationship with your family be, for example?

Quickly, they would expect me to have a degree to be a doctor. They would expect me to have very cute children. They will expect to have a very big home, just to be very well off and very successful in life.

Generally, how would your relationship with other Cambodians be different if you were a whiter?

I think I would be more of a trustworthy person to them; they would trust me to keep their money, or watch my kid for a little bit, or here, can we drive my car and keep the car safe. Basically, a more trustworthy friend to be with rather than be looked at as a criminal or someone who would take their money or steal from them.

How would your relationship with members of the opposite gender be different if you were much lighter?

I would probably get a lot more Asian men. Right now I get hit on more by Black men and Hispanic men and things like that, but I would get hit on by probably a lot more Asian men if it was a light skinned Asian person.

Did you ever want your children to be lighter or darker than you because of knowing that children don't want to have to go through as much pain and struggles as a darker child?

Yeah, I wanted my children to look like their father because I stare at myself every day, I know what I look like, I didn't want to have a kid to look like me. I just wanted them to look like their Puerto Rican father. Yeah, I guess it is very wrong of me, but that is the honest truth I wanted. Because I see my husband, he’s a man, he has very beautiful features, he has long eyelashes, and so I just wanted my kids to look like him. I mean the skin color wasn't as big of a deal, but I just wanted a drastic change from me. But, I never thought of it as like, “Oh, it's because I’m ugly and I don't want my children to look like me.” I just wanted something very drastic.

Imagine a world where both of your parents were very light Cambodians. How do you think your life would be different? What kind of education would you have, what kind of house would you be living in, where would you be located?

I think if my parents were light skinned, I would probably be better off. I probably would have graduated high school because my parents would actually have participated in my school life. They would have cared about my grades more often. They would have made sure that I participate in school activities. They would have made sure I had a car. They would have made sure I had money to go to college. They would have had that all set aside for that ready to go. So, I would have been set for life. I wouldn't have needed welfare to get by, or anything like that. Growing up, we had Chinese friends; our Chinese-Cambodian friends who had single family homes, they didn't have to stay in section eight housing. As soon as the kids turned fifteen, sixteen, they had their own cars already paid for, had their first jobs, their moms would make them lunches packed ready to go. things like that. They had their girlfriends already matched up for them and things like that. It was a big drastic difference in my family compared to that Chinese family we knew.

Is there anything you would like to add or anything you missed, or anything that you would like to the general audience or Cambodian community that will be reading this?

I would like to say that to the Cambodian community in general is that maybe Cambodians should actually learn how to support their children no matter what skin color they are more often. If we could compare ourselves to the Vietnamese, the Chinese, and the Thai, they don’t put down their children and their peers and their community as much as Cambodians. Maybe our country wouldn’t be as corrupt as it is now if we would just be supportive of each other as a culture, as a community, if we started with our children if we started to show love to them instead of putting them down so much‒and it starts with the colorism.