Somaly, 32

Phnom Penh, Cambodia | April 6th, 2021

Date of interview: July 8th, 2020

What is your ethnicity?

My ethnicity is Khmer; my father is Khmer, and my mother is also Khmer. We have moved from Battambang Province and live in Phnom Penh currently. We actually didn’t have any relatives who had any blood from Chinese, Vietnamese or another ethnicity. That is all. Just one tie. 

How connected do you feel to Khmer culture?

I feel like it’s a really hard question. For me, I have two personal opinions about Khmer culture. The first one is Khmer culture teaches young people to be proper in their family, teach them to understand and have a strong relationship between the family members and relatives around them. I can say this because normally here, we see that a lot of children, when they grow up, they always live with their parents or build some kind of strong connection with family members. They are really good at considering each other and taking care of each other all the time, so that is really good and positive for me; however, this culture makes some Cambodian people unable to move far. For example, if they have to study or move away from the family, it’s really hard for their family. For example, if they got a scholarship or if they have to travel a lot, their family is always concerned. Sometimes they have to ban their children from traveling. Actually, this is some kind of obusak/ឧបសគ្គ (obstacles).

The second opinion I have that I think is not so positive––it isn’t in the entire country, by the way, I just observe––we see that there is an obstacle in a person’s development. For example, Khmer yeung/ខ្មែរយើង (Khmer/Cambodian people) like to say that by age 25 or 26, you should be married, have a family. But, they are not used to thinking about how this is an obstacle for the next generation’s development, knowledge, and their goal for the future. Normally if we compare our culture to that of foreign ones––where they allow and encourage individuals to follow their own pursuits––we see that there are distinct differences. This causes issues within people’s psyche.

How do you feel about your facial features, like your eyes, nose, and lips? Do you feel that your facial features are beautiful and good, or not?

When I look into the mirror, I see that my nose is big and I almost start to get angry. Sometimes I think that my eyes are okay, [they] look fine. Eyelashes, fine. So my eyes are pretty. But my nose seems a little big. I had acne before, but now it’s okay. When I looked at myself in the mirror, I was actually afraid, and wanted to erase my image and throw the mirror away altogether. I didn’t put a mirror in my room because I didn’t want to see my face. In the last two years, though, I feel that nature has offered this much for me, and I should try to take care of myself. I don’t have to look for doctors. Before I used to look for doctors to try and change my face, but I don’t anymore. I’m changing the way I think about my looks now; I think, “It’s just my appearance, it’s not my heart.” But since the beginning, I still feel that my nose is a little bit big. 

What about your lips and your face shape?

I think that my lips are okay. My face shape is really big; I want to have a V-shape. 

Can you describe your skin color?

I would say dark brown. 

How would other people describe your skin tone?

Black. People don’t call me anything like light brown. They only consider me as black skin. They’ll only call me “black skin” or something like that.

Where do you think your skin, your hair and your features come from?

Actually, I don’t know who my hair comes from because my mom and my father have curly hair, and my hair is straight, and so thin. My eyes, my nose, and my lips are similar to my father’s. 

How do you feel about your skin color?

Actually, sometimes I feel like I want to get a white color more than a brown, recently, because other people around me consider white color to always be beautiful. They never think that brown, dark brown, or light brown is beautiful, but they’ll consider white skin to be really beautiful. When they see a lady with white skin, they always look, and then they always admire them, that they have really good skin, really nice skin, but they never admire any women who have brown skin as me. 

Did you always feel this way throughout your life?

When I was young, I felt really seriously about this and always considered “Why am I this color? What is wrong with this color? Why can’t I choose?” and this is what I had in my brain when I was young. 

What kind of names would people use to describe your skin color?

Some people call me khmao/ខ្មៅ (black) and some call me sraem/ស្រអែម (tan). But, not many people call me sraem/ស្រអែម (tan). 

How does that make you feel when people would call you khmao/ខ្មៅ (black) over sraem/ស្រអែម (tan)?

I don’t know what the word is for what I’m feeling, but it’s like, “I don’t want to have this color” when they say that “You are so black; you are so dark.” I just feel suffering, it’s hard, and it’s painful. Sometimes I think they are just kidding, but even with kidding it still touches me. When I was 25 or 26, I used to use the cream that can change your skin color, but it didn’t work because my skin had an allergy to it so I couldn’t use it. 

Are you the darkest or the lightest or in the middle, in your family?

I am the darkest in my family. My brother and my sister are brown too, but they are better than me because they don’t travel a lot. I travel often so the sun makes my skin browner and darker. 

Are your parents lighter or darker than you?

They are lighter than me. So, everyone in my family is lighter, except me. Khmao jieng ke/ខ្មៅជាងជេ (blacker than everyone else).

What about compared to the rest of Cambodia?

Compared to the rest of Srok Khmer/ស្រុកខ្មែរ (Cambodia), I think I am in the middle. Yes, I am in the middle.

What do you think about Cambodia media? Do you see people who look like you in Cambodian media?

When I look at televised Cambodian media, like how you said, the announcer and host are white, slim, and pretty. I rarely see them with sbour sraem/សម្បុរស្រអែម (tan skin). One or two out of ten are maybe tan. Even if someone starts off in the media as tan, as time passes, they become extremely pale, but I don’t know how that happens. I just know when they first got in, they were tan, and as time passed by they’re white. And I see some celebrities with tanner skin when they first came out that are still tan, but they just make their skin look brighter. It almost looks lighter, but they don’t want whiter. One thing that I want to say is that I think that only someone who has white skin can become a celebrity. Sometimes people think like that.

Let’s say one day you were to be casted in Cambodian media. What would your role be?

House maid. Yeah, I feel that. Or a gardener.

Why is it or why do you think that elite spaces in Cambodia are significantly lighter?

Well the question is really hard, but we often see rich people‒normally when we see people with white skin we say they probably don’t work outside in the sun a lot. So, when they do not work much out in the sun, they’re complexion is white and they apply a lot of lightening cream to themselves. But, those who work outside a lot are black or brown like my skin.

Do you think that people who have darker skin have that darker skin due to being outside or were they born with it?

There’s a perception that people with tan skin are not smart. That’s just what people think. And for your question asking whether those who have darker skin have their skin color due to being outside in the sun or due to their genetics from their parents, truthfully when we think about it, it is more because of their parents’ genetics. People who have dark skin from the beginning, though they use lightening creams, they still cannot fully change their skin color, and it remains the same unless they strip their skin down completely, which after doing it they don’t look normal anymore. As for people with white skin, like foreigners who we see come and tan in the sun, when they go back to their country of origin they end up returning to their original skin color. So for people here, if they use lightening creams and get lighter, they go back in the sun and return to their original skin color. 

How does colorism affect your life?

Going into the workforce, specifically thinking about what it would take to be a receptionist, I knew that if I were saw/ស (white), I could work in the front and I would catch people’s attention and I would immediately have people asking questions out of interest. I thought about this when I wanted to get a job as a receptionist at school, or at other workplaces. So, because of what I look like, I didn’t have confidence to be a receptionist or a hostess or a government worker. I wanted to be a newscaster, I wanted to be a presenter, but I didn’t dare because my skin color looks like this. I think that colorism affects our decision-making and it affects us by making us think that whatever we want to do, we simply can’t. We think, “Oh, I want to do this, but they don’t need me, they look for neak saat saat, saw enchung/អ្នកស្អាតស្អាត​​ សអញ្ចឹង (beautiful/white people). It destroys our confidence–that we can’t do it. Even before when I walked into the room to do my first presentation, I was scared, too. Why? First, I remembered that I was khmao jieng ke/ខ្មៅជាងគេ (most black/darkest out of everyone). Second, I felt that I wasn’t as good as everyone else. But, we still try to go forward. But I just say that colorism negatively affects our feelings and psyche, so that we don’t have enough confidence to do what we like. It is an obusak/ឧបសគ្គ (obstacle) for us. 

My second point relates to professionalism and how we make our living. Normally the people who live around us, they walk near us, and upon seeing us they say, “Why don’t you go and find some whitening creams or something to make you white already?” And we ask them, “Why are we to use those creams if our skin is only pon nung/ ប៉ិណណឹង (that’s it)?” I ask them, “Do you think that when we are born we want to be born with this skin color? That I wanted to be born short? That I wanted to be born as a human who is not beautiful? No one wants that. There’s never a person who wants to be born with these types of appearances.” And when we ask them these questions, they’ll say “Oh, we were just playing, are you really mad?” But when they ask these questions to us, they don’t really think before they ask; they don’t really think that the people who they ask are going to be upset or offended. If they ask us once, it’s okay. Twice, you start to get unhappy. But after three times, you start to believe, “Maybe I am ugly.” So there’s a saying that says, “If someone says that I’m ugly, I’m not going to get angry at them because it’s true, I’m truly ugly.” Those kinds of comments, when the people around us tease us over and over again like they’re kidding, it affects the feelings of those who listen. It ruins relationships, people start to distance themselves from each other, they start to leave the conversation, and decide not to go to certain events because people are always going to put them down. We begin to think, “it’s because I was born khmao, min saat/ខ្មៅមិនស្អាត (black, not beautiful),” stuff like that. If you think about it, it affects your psyche. I experienced it myself personally, that it affected my mind and emotions because when my friends used to make comments about my skin type or my body shape, I used to feel really small but later on I asked myself why I had to listen to people’s comments about me when they’re not me. 

To sum it up, my long-term friendships over many years had to be cut off. So we stopped seeing each other, stopped talking to each other, and stopped meeting each other. But if we go to a meeting or something and see each other, we just smile at each other, ask each other how we’re doing, and that’s it. It’s because when you play around by commenting about someone’s skin and body shape, it affects our emotions so much so that we terminate the relationship. And it’s not just me, either; there are other people who feel the same as I do. 

How did colorism affect you in your youth and/or adolescence?

In my youth around high school around age 18 or 19, all of my friends were saw/ស (white), and so I didn’t dare walk close or nearby to them. We who have this skin color, we aeb kean/អែបគាន (stay in the corners and hide yourself). We walk a bit far from them. When teachers call on me to answer a question, I don’t dare say anything; instead I look around at others and don’t say anything. Every time they called me to go up to the board, I didn’t want to go because what if they see my skin color; I didn’t want to speak. When I see others who were saw/ស (white), I thought, they probably stay inside most of the time and thus have more time to study and are smarter than us. We don’t have that; our parents are neak rok see/អ្នករកស៊ី (people who make a living whatever way they can), we ride to school everyday and get darker, so when the teacher calls on me I just smile at them and am way too intimidated to speak because I feel embarrassed. 

Why were you embarrassed, or what were you embarrassed of?

First, I was embarrassed because of my skin color. Second, I thought because I was poor I didn’t have time to study as much as others, and that I was poorer than everyone else, you know. So I didn’t dare go near other people; oftentimes I would let people leave the classroom first until I was the only one left, then walk behind. I thought, kao min kao, au min au/ខៅមិនខៅ​ អាវមិនអាវ (pants are not pants, shirt is not shirt; a saying that means poorly dressed). Whenever we can’t dress up to par with others or have a skin color like mine, we don’t feel that we should walk near others. 

“Whenever we can’t dress up to par with others or have a skin color like mine, we don’t feel that we should walk near others.“

If you were to go to school in the countryside, would you have had classmates who were of your similar skin tone and would you have felt this way still?

When I was in high school, I didn’t know anything of the countryside. I only knew of Phnom Penh. I never went to the provinces. And I never visited any other schools either. So this question is probably hard for me to answer, but at my school there were a lot of saw/ស (white) students in my school. Beautiful. But for the countryside, I didn’t know. Even now I can’t do this question justice because I am not familiar with the ways of the people in the countryside; every time I go, it is brief and for a certain reason, but I can say that I do see the students sitting all together in school. They don’t separate themselves by Khmer ethnicity, Islam ethnicity, or Vietnamese ethnicity. They sit mixed in with each other. That’s something that I saw. When I asked older people, they said that when they were going to school, they saw a lot of Khmer people and they were khmao/ខ្មៅ (black). So, the older generation claims that the only people that they see were mostly Khmer and thus khmao/ខ្មៅ (black) in school. But now I’m confident. I’m beautiful. Kidding, haha. 

What kind of jobs do you see people who have your skin color working in Cambodia?

Now, people can do whatever they are able to do. I mostly work in the NGO sector, and they don’t really pick by skin color. If you are able to do the job or have the skillset, they’ll want you; they don’t think about your skin color. And for the public sector, it is that way too. But as for the private sector, I’m not sure. But from what I have been able to see, people who are sraem/ស្រអែម (tan) or saw/ស (white) are able to do those jobs like banking, if they have the skillset. So I noticed that the big organizations don’t rely on skin color. The important thing is that the individuals themselves take the opportunity. It also matters that the person with that skin color has confidence to do the work or not. 

Looking at Cambodia, what kind of jobs do people who are your skin color and darker work?

In my opinion, people who live in the countryside and Phnom Penh don’t really discriminate by color at the workplace. What does distribute differences is that the individuals themselves and the people around them are the ones who are dividing and discriminating by color. We see this in the way people are made to feel that they should whiten their skin to look a different way. But in hiring, people don’t say that this dark-skinned person can do this job and this light-skinned person can do this job; it’s about if the individual can do the job. 

What kind of jobs do you see people who look like you working? What kind of jobs do you see people who are lighter than you working?

For question one that asks what kind of jobs people who have skin tones like me work, here we follow the constitution which prohibits hiring from discriminating on the basis of race and color. They can do any kinds of work, however, people with dark skin are not often seen working in kar totuol pnyieu/ការទទួលភ្ញៀវ (receptionist) positions. They work a lot outside of reception.

No matter what, I see recent changes in the context [of work discrimination in Cambodia]. At the same time, I see that there hasn’t been a lot of changes in the fact that the majority of people believe that people with dark skin cannot do certain types of work or are not suitable for certain jobs. Widely, people think that people with whiter skin are more attractive and people pay attention to them more. That’s why people try to use lightening creams to become whiter. But for the most part, I see that people with any skin color can work at any place like anyone else. The pay is the same, and there is no separation between who can work these positions and who can work those positions based on their skin color at a company. In general, the majority of people see that the people who work in the area of services, such as reception––many of them have white skin, so therefore people often think that white skin leads people to be highly interested; that’s why people feel strongly about using creams to make their skin whiter. 

How do you think your life would be different if you were lighter, had a slimmer nose, or different textured hair?

If I had white skin, people would look at me and like me when I go outside. They would be interested in me, love me, and if I had white skin and a sharp nose, I think that everybody in general when they glimpse at me would be interested in me and I would appear lovely to them. They would talk with me as normal, if I were beautiful. I would have confidence when I walk, and people who see me would surely want to talk to me. But for some people, those who have black skin or tan skin, not beautiful, there aren’t really people who come to talk to them. In one instance, people often believe that people who have white skin and a sharp nose garner a lot more attention than people who have black skin or tan skin like me, and if they also think that they are beautiful, then it’s easier for them to meet people, talk to people, work with people, and when talking with others, she’s able to change or influence their minds by using her beauty. 

How do you think your relationship with your family would be different? How do you think your relationship with other Cambodians would be different?

Family often has a sense of closeness; they stick together and are very close. Therefore, even if one has black skin, in their family they don’t have a problem with that because they will still keep a close relationship with each other. But there is one point where, when they see that someone in the family has darker skin, they will often tell that person to use lightening creams to become whiter. Even though they don’t say anything more than this, the person with darker skin already feels the discrimination.

If I had white skin and a sharp nose, when interacting with others I would feel confident in myself and would have a good relationship with other people, different people, and walking through the world I would feel that I am beautiful altogether. This is what I believe. As for in-laws, sometimes if they see that you have dark skin, they will say “me khmao mok tiet hary/មីខ្មៅមកទៀតហើយ (the black girl has come again).” And then they will say to their family, aeng yok brapon khmao mleh ning bdei khmao mleh/ហ្អែងយកប្រពន្ធខ្មៅម៉្លេះ និងប្ដីអីខ្មៅម៉្លេះ (Why have you taken such a black wife/husband)?” All of this is discrimination against color. And some other people say that black skin is photogenic; when they get married and their picture came out to be beautiful/nice, they say you’re photogenic because you’re black. Not only that, but this is why during marriage they will scrub the bride and use lightening creams on her so that she will be white and pretty. They will say that doing this will give you a good photo, and you only marry once, so you need to look beautiful and white.

Would you want your spouse to be lighter or darker than you?

I believe that if I had white skin, my parents definitely would be happy because they want their children to look beautiful when you look at them. I would be very captivating and very worthy to be loved. That’s why they want you to use lightening creams; apply anything that will make you white. According to other people, they think that their family also gives them encouragement, and their parents uplift their spirit; that is their motivation for them to please their family and their parents, to put on the cream, and to wear long, thick clothing during the summer so that your skin doesn’t turn black. But I don’t understand why they torture themselves like that. “Sbaek mien ponna yok ponneng/ ស្បែកមានប៉ុណណាយកប៉ុណណឹង” (Whatever skin you have, you have). Why do we have to torture ourselves?

If you could change one thing in your life, what would you change or what would you do?

Importantly, I don’t have anything that I want to change about my life, but if I were to change something, I would change the people who are around me. I would want them to stop thinking about white, tan, or black skin. We’re all human, all the same. We should respect each other and understand each other; we all know that whether a person has black or white skin, we all have a heart that is just like anyone else. So therefore, we should not try to push assumptions that people with white skin have a higher value than those who have black skin or tan skin. Skin with melanin protects the skin from cancer. And if you don’t think that these things are important, then you won’t spend money to buy lightening creams. Finally, I want to say that we are all born as the same people, the same arms and hands, the same legs that stand on the ground, the same brain, and the same heart. Why do we create a conflict over who is white and who is black?